Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

LacsapascaL t1_iu8fro0 wrote

Reply to comment by OrganicHair9951 in “boys will be boys”, me, mixed media, 2022 by OrganicHair9951

But you do realise there’s a complete contradiction in your piece right? Obviously you’ve portrayed the female body as something to be sexually admired, and at the same time included a message rebuking the attention it will inevitably attract?

−22

OrganicHair9951 OP t1_iu8gina wrote

no, but i understand your interpretation. i didn’t sexualize her in any way. i simply painted a naked woman, which in my eyes is a beautiful depiction of divine femininity. the butterflies are a representation of innocence, and the book i tore pages out of and burned are a representation of loss of innocence. you can’t ever get those pages back; you can never regain innocence once it’s been taken. i believe my piece screams femininity, and boundary; awareness. if you took my painting a naked woman for objectification and sexualization, or that i was “tempting” you in doing so, despite my message written right next to it, then not to be blunt (or disrespectful) but that’s kind of the problem, right ?

21

LacsapascaL t1_iu8het9 wrote

I agree that the female body is a beautiful depiction of divine femininity. But it seems like you also recognise that it is more than a one sided image of innocence, it’s also an image of innocence violated, because as much as it is an object of divine femininity, it is also a sexual object, or at least it’s perceived as both. Also, with respect, what I think the piece screams, or at least what I hear from it is a childish wish to regain that innocence, but which as you yourself pointed out in the piece, can’t be regained once lost. So on that level I can appreciate the contradiction in the piece from an artistic perspective. The female body can’t be only pure or innocent or sexually neutral, because it is already a sexual object. So it’s just useful to recognise that balance.

Edit: that’s all to say that it’s not possible to have your cake and eat it too, if you want to display a naked female body, you also do not get to determine how people naturally react to it. But that definitely does not mean that men are entitled to violate a woman’s boundaries.

−20

OrganicHair9951 OP t1_iu8o205 wrote

well no, i wasn’t trying trying to determine how you view the naked female anatomy. i was pointing out how in me painting a naked female, you immediately sexualized it. you also stated that the female body “is a sexual object” … which is deeply troubling. a female in her naked form should never be automatically seen as a sexual object. that’s the problem. and the same goes for all genders. do you know the reason why the depiction of naked people, especially men, was so prevalent in art from ancient greece? to celebrate the human body. they used nudity to push a social normative. i use the same ideology in all my art.

18

LacsapascaL t1_iu8t8gs wrote

I also agree that there are ways to depict the human body generally, but the female body in this case, that is celebratory, rather than erotic or pornographic. The erotic being a more lofty means of depiction than the pornographic. But I struggle to imagine in what way the female form could be represented without it having an underlying connotation of sexuality.

−8

LacsapascaL t1_iu8sbxx wrote

But I would dispute the idea that the female body is equivalent to the male body in terms of neutrality. The male body isn’t sexualised in the same way a female body is. But this is coming from an evolutionary perspective. Men have been primed by evolution to view the female body as inherently a sexual object. But object doesn’t always have to carry a negative connotation. It simply points to the fact that the response to the perception of a naked female body is an automatic response in men. And I would argue that it’s that same numinosity inherent in the female body that accounts for why you, I, and others, can elevate it into something more lofty (or divine, in your words). Because you recognise the power the female form has, and it just so happens that that power is rooted in its sexuality. The male body doesn’t carry that same weight for women as the female body does for men.

In short, my point is only that the female body is sexualised by default, and I don’t think it’s a good idea to wish that away, because, as much as there is a downside in the fact that predatory men aren’t inclined to recognise personal boundaries, or to see the person behind the flesh, it’s also the basis for our reproductive capacity.

I think what you’re getting at, and it’s a valid perspective, is that men should be better at controlling their innate responses to a naked woman. And I totally agree, but you should distinguish between men and predatory men, because not all men are inclined to violate women’s boundaries. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to try to strip away the sexual essence innate in the female form, in the name of preserving innocence.

−9

OrganicHair9951 OP t1_iu971pu wrote

don’t see a need to make it known that i wasn’t talking abt all men when talking abt sexual deviancy, because for one i didn’t even say “all men are predatory”. that was you that determined that. and two, my objective when creating this wasn’t to protect the fragile emotions of men who may get offended by my art representing sexual assault. why ? because it’s not abt them. no malice, no vengeance, no hostility. its simply not abt them. it’s a representation of sexual deviants, and the victims of their crimes. giving us a voice so loud, vibrant, aggressive, and clear for the times we were robbed of words, amongst others. and if you take offense in that? then the issue is not for me to resolve. that is something you must resolve from within.

8

LacsapascaL t1_iu9cpdh wrote

No I’m not offended by it. And I’m not justifying people who take offence at it. I was just pointing out what I saw as a contradiction in the piece. I just don’t think it’s possible to eliminate sexuality from the perception of the female form. Do you believe it is?

And it sounds like for you this is more about empowering women who have been victims of predatory men, and to give them a voice, in which case more power to you. But I don’t think the way to do that is by changing the way the female body is perceived, although I would commend attempts to shift the perception of female beauty away from an emphasis on the material/fleshly (pornographic) and more toward the spiritual, but we don’t have many symbols in our culture of that aspect of the feminine, the divine aspect as you called it. The Virgin Mary in Christianity was such a symbol. Or Artemis, the Greek goddess of nature, who took a vow of chastity, and whose myth, btw, involved a man seeing her naked, and who was then turned into a deer (a symbol of the animal nature of man in the presence of the female body) by Artemis, and torn to shreds by dogs.

−1

OrganicHair9951 OP t1_iu9f2wo wrote

why does a woman have to be celibate or a virgin in order for her body to not be sexualized ? and as a female, i’m most definitely going to be focused on how to change the way the female body is sexualized and objectified. i’m a woman. why would i want to live in a world where the normative is the over-sexualization of our naked anatomy? more so, why would i want to raise little girls in a world where they are perceived as nothing more than sex objects? and to answer your question, i think if we continue to have discussions like this, and continue pushing topics like “maybe it’s how we parent”, with time (loads of it) one day we will reach a point where the majority of the population that have children or are looking to be parents, will be well informed on topics such as “toxic masculinity”, dismantling the association of certain behaviors/interests/objects/etc.. w specific genders, victim blaming, normalizing sex talk/reinventing our sexual education system, etc.. and through that, those same morals and values will be instilled in our children, which is all it is. that part is so v crucial. and i believe in our future, that is most definitely possible.

9

LacsapascaL t1_iuao2af wrote

I agree, broadly, that our relationship with female sexuality needs to change. I do think however that what you’re pointing to is one form of excess in a excessively materialistic culture, which is an over emphasis on the body, particularly women’s bodies. It’s true that it’s hyper sexualised. But I think what you’re not getting is the fact that nothing needs to be done to the perception of the female body to make it ‘perceived sexually’ it just is naturally viewed that way. Where the excess is is in the fact that our culture has commodified it, and made it an object for cheap gratification. So if that’s what you’re pointing to then I totally agree with you. But is the solution not more modesty, or at the very least the reinstatement of chastity as a virtue in our society, at least pre marital chastity. Because I don’t see what else can be done to inculcate in men’s minds that sex and the female body isn’t something to be trivialised or cheapened with easy access, that it is rather something to be in awe of and something to make you reflect on whether you’re good enough to be worthy of her or her body. I think that’s where the focus needs to be. Because how else will you ‘change the way the female body is sexualised or objectified’? In a Culture where pornography is so easily acquired, and where there is an expectation that sex is a guarantee in the world of dating. These sorts of things are what damages the way men perceive women and women’s bodies.

In short, the enchantment doesn’t need to be taken away from female sexuality, what needs to change is our understanding of the seriousness of sex and the female body as something not to be trivialised or cheapened with easy access, on the part of men, and the need for more modesty on the part of women, to make men aware that they need to work hard to be worthy of women’s bodies.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean specifically by ‘the oversexualisation of our naked anatomy’? Can you expand on this to make sure I’m on the same page? And also what you mean by ‘the association of certain behaviours/objects/interests with certain genders’? I’m not sure how this is linked with sexuality. I’d also like to know what morals and values you would like to see instilled in children.

1

LacsapascaL t1_iuar2ze wrote

Also, would you want to eliminate sexuality from the perception of the female body?

1

OrganicHair9951 OP t1_iu8gkqv wrote

just wanted to say thank you btw, great opportunity for discussion on something that i’m very passionate abt. was not at all trying to be rude in what i responded w, just pointing something out.

9

LacsapascaL t1_iu8gr8u wrote

No I appreciate your perspective. I don’t mean any disrespect either.

1