NWO_Eliminator t1_isdcfdx wrote on October 15, 2022 at 2:25 AM

Reply to comment by BoilerButtSlut in Dishwasher keeps going by Atlantic76

That's true, but most would be happy to spend more for a fridge with a longer life and less, if not zero, repair calls. Nothing like that exists today.

That's a big factor for a working person having to take time waiting for a repairmen to show up and diagnose the problem. There's usually another scheduled appointment required after the part is ordered and arrives. In between, your appliance is down. If it's a critical appliance like a washer, you're now taking time and money to the laundromat. If it's a refrigerator, you're living out of coolers and throwing away a large portion of your food unless you have a spare one in the garage (which I highly recommend). The whole scenario is a major inconvenience. Build a better product, make it reliable, and people will happily fork over the extra money.

BoilerButtSlut t1_isdn68n wrote on October 15, 2022 at 4:03 AM

>but most would be happy to spend more for a fridge with a longer life and less, if not zero, repair calls. Nothing like that exists today.

They do exist, and no people are not lining up to buy them.

The drive to cheaper appliances is 100% consumer driven. Consumers want their appliances cheaper and they want more gimmicky features. Well, making something cheaper and adding stuff to it means that the cost has to come from somewhere, and it almost always ends up being build quality or longevity.

Here's a fridge that offers a 5 year warranty and should easily last 20 years. Here's one that should last the rest of your life with proper maintenance. I don't see people lining up to buy either of them, partially because they are expensive, but also because people will look at that and see no icemaker/water dispenser, no fancy door LCD, no wifi or advanced interface, etc and then see the (shit) Samsung with blue LEDs and LCDs everywhere with wizzbang gimmicks for cheaper and go with that instead.

Here's an even starker example that you can find a big box store like home depot:

Both of these cost about the same. One has every gimmick you can imagine that you will use maybe twice and then never again. The other has two knobs and a button. Take a guess which will last 15+ years, and which one will fall apart within a few months to a year.

You can repeat this for just about any appliance you want:

A good toaster that will last decades will cost about $250. Same for a wafflemaker. Most people are not buying them.

A dishwasher should cost about $1k for the barebones model. Mine cost about $2k and I've yet to meet anyone who spent the same.

You get the idea. These are all easily findable and you can go out and buy them, but they aren't at all popular.

NWO_Eliminator t1_ise2z87 wrote on October 15, 2022 at 7:15 AM

I've been heavily involved in the appliance business for 20 years, I know how it works. That's why I outlifted my house with vintage appliances decades ago that had the best proven track of reliability and performance (luckily the good ones have both features). I also have knowledge in how they work, repair, and restore them for fun as a side hobby.

Both washers posted are equal pieces of shit. Everything Samsung makes in the appliance market is junk. The other Whirlpool commercial washer has a POS transmission with shitty plastic gearing that's widely undersized, along with shitty shaft seals that die within a couple of years. Everybody goes bonkers on this site for the Maytag 575 washer but it's a fucking piece of shit (The commercial washer posted is the same design as the 575)

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?82490

Whirlpool still uses the same design dryer (29" top filter) they introduced in 1966 but cheapened the ever living hell out of it the last 20 years.

Speed queen washers were mediocre at best in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. When GE discontinued its Filter Flo design washer in 1995, Maytag discontinued its helical transmission design in 2006 (back when it was in Newton Iowa) after Whirlpool acquired it, and Whirlpool discontinued its Direct Drive Transmission in 2010 is when Speed Queen went from "meh" to the top. There was no design changes to make Speed Queen superior, everything around them became cheaply designed junk. Speed Queen TC5000 washer was riddled with control board issues to the point they had to rename the model# to TC5003. It also had some transmission issues using plastic parts that got fixed updating them with metal ones. I just hate the severe restrictions on that model with virtually no control of the water level, zero control over the timer, and dumbed down water temperatures. Speed Queens TR series is junk and doesn't wash worth a damn. Their front load washers are well built and easy to service but they don't include an internal heater like all other models now do. That a big deal considering it's very expensive price tag. Speed Queen dryers are "meh" and typically run very hot.

I could write even longer paragraphs about dishwashers and refrigerators but I'll stop here. I will say that Whirlpool used to build a very good dishwasher (minus the crappy control boards that died often from the mid 90's to the present) and the best refrigerators on the planet. However, they radically changed those designs the past few years and their reliability is not better than the typical junk made today. There is NO reliably designed refrigerator at the moment but hopefully someone will step up to the plate. These are all planned obsolescence moves though cheapness.

BoilerButtSlut t1_isfez8p wrote on October 15, 2022 at 3:48 PM

>The other Whirlpool commercial washer has a POS transmission with shitty plastic gearing that's widely undersized, along with shitty shaft seals that die within a couple of years

Are you sure? I pretty much have the same model in one of the buildings I manage and has been working fine under heavy use for 15 years. It's the same kind that laundromats buy. Owners of laundromats aren't stupid: they pay attention to lifetime cost. They aren't going to buy something that falls apart every few years.

>There is NO reliably designed refrigerator at the moment but hopefully someone will step up to the plate.

Commercial fridges are all garbage? Again, the people buying commercial are looking at the lifetime cost. Miele is also well-known for going fine for 20+ years (both for dishwashers and fridges).

I think you're just painting a pretty broad brush.

NWO_Eliminator t1_isg3uv2 wrote on October 15, 2022 at 6:43 PM

>Are you sure? I pretty much have the same model in one of the buildings I manage and has been working fine under heavy use for 15 years.

If your washer is 15 years old then it has the direct drive transmission which is a completely different animal than this one.

Commercial fridges are all garbage?

Well, if you have 4+ thousand dollars burning a hole in your pocket, they may be reliable. I'm not up to speed on the durability of new commercial refrigerators. Modern day electronics could have changed that.

Miele is also well-known for going fine for 20+ years (both for dishwashers and fridges).

Looks around here and on other forums. There's been complaints about the electronics prematurely dying on newer Miele dishwashers. Same goes with their recent vacuum cleaners. I'm not familiar with their refrigerators.

BoilerButtSlut t1_ity4jt9 wrote on October 27, 2022 at 3:49 AM

>If your washer is 15 years old then it has the direct drive transmission which is a completely different animal than this one.

What's different about it? I'm looking at the parts diagram for the one I posted vs. the 15 year old one I own and I'm not seeing much of a difference in transmission. I'm not an an expert though so I could be missing something.

>Modern day electronics could have changed that.

I work in consumer electronics. Electronics can easily be made to last decades. All you have to do is go to any factory that is still in business from the 70s/80s and you'll almost certainly still see a lot of original controllers around the place.

The tradeoff is that longer-lasting electronic components cost more money. If you're making something that's only expected to be used for a few years, then yeah the manufacturer will gladly go to lower lifetime parts to save a few cents. The capacitors in most low-cost smartphones are only rated to last about 2-3 years (basically just enough to last a typical upgrade cycle).

>There's been complaints about the electronics prematurely dying on newer Miele dishwashers

Every brand has complaints. Even a 99.99% perfection rate means thousands of complaints when you're shipping millions of units. The expectations are also a lot higher when you spend that much money on an appliance. The questions to ask are 1) were the problems fixed? 2) How difficult is it to service yourself or get parts when it's out of warranty? Miele is good on #2. I've only dealt with Miele support once (over something the installer did wrong) and they were way better than any other customer support I've dealt with.

It's possible they went down in quality, I suppose, but why now? They've owned this market segment for over a century and are privately owned. There isn't an incentive for them to suddenly change gears.

NWO_Eliminator t1_itys7i6 wrote on October 27, 2022 at 8:42 AM

You can't see the differences between the old and new designs and transmissions?!?

Read through this thread to see what actual appliance repairmen that have 50+ years of experience have to say about the new design. Go to Reply #33 and sift through 10 pictures of all of the tiny cheap plastic gearing inside. Look at the rusted agitator shafts that are destroyed in 3 years or less due to their shitty tub seals.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREADM.cgi?78846

Here's the inside of the transmission of the older style that has zero history of tub seal issues.

https://youtu.be/cUOH67WisHU?t=246

Profit. Make it cheaper and sell for the same price. If everyone else is cheapening their design to maximize profit, follow the trend to survive. I also think they're coming out with new designs and not spending enough time with research and development.

This has been a major issue in the automotive world the last 10-15 years. They come out with a new engine/transmission design and by the time they fix all of the problems, they crank out another design and the process repeats itself. Engines went to low tension piston rings in the mid to late 2000's and they had a ton of oil burning issues. Actually, a lot of new vehicles still have oil burning issues due to this shitty design to increase MPG's a measly 1-2 points. Now the new trend is putting small engines in everything, including trucks, and throwing a turbo on it. It's greatly reducing the lifespan of engines and turbo are dying early deaths.

Just look at automatic transmissions in the last 15-20 years. In the early 2000's we still had 4 speed automatic transmissions with designs that went back to the late 70's/early 80's. Then it went to 5 and 6 speeds to 8-10 speeds in as little as 5 years. There were a lot of major changes in a short period of time with automatic and CVT transmissions and they were dying premature deaths due to the lack of R&D. A Toyota Camry was still using the same 4 speed automatic transmission in 2001 as they did in 1983. Some Toyota products went from 4 speed transmissions to 8 speed with several different design changes in between in just 6 years.

BoilerButtSlut t1_iu9wvia wrote on October 29, 2022 at 6:19 PM

You said that the older ones were direct drive and the newer ones weren't. I assume direct drive is having the motor directly connected instead of a transmission. Both machines have transmissions. If that's not what you meant you'll have to clarify.

Looking at the pictures of the transmissions I agree that it appears that cost saving manufacturing steps were made. Whether that affects lifetime I'm not sure.

If it does affect lifetime, I expect that these will disappear from laundromats pretty quickly in favor of more durable models. Laundromats keep track of this stuff and it will be obvious they cost more to operate.

>If everyone else is cheapening their design to maximize profit, follow the trend to survive. I also think they're coming out with new designs and not spending enough time with research and development.

Well the first problem is that this will kill long-term profits. These are private families that own these brands. They are not beholden to shareholder promises or quarterly promises. German companies are notorious for filling small-volume niche markets like this and just never leaving. I doubt the families are more greedy than they were 50 years ago, nor that german economic policy has changed much during that time either. So again, assuming this is even happening, why now?

The problem is that "everyone" isn't doing it. All you need is one company that doesn't go along for the whole scheme to fall apart. US carmakers already tried this twice and both times some import came in and destroyed them.

I've always heard this "oh everyone is doing it" but I still have no trouble finding durable and long-lasting versions of stuff. If Whirlpool (or whoever) is reducing quality, look elsewhere and I guarantee you'll find it.

>They come out with a new engine/transmission design and by the time they fix all of the problems, they crank out another design and the process repeats itself.

The new designs are for regulatory compliance. They don't do it for fun. You can blame the federal government for this. This has nothing to do with the carmakers themselves (source: I know automotive engineers at 2 of the big 3 automakers).

Same thing for the transmissions. That's all for fuel economy compliance. They aren't doing it for fun or in some vain hope that it will fail and bring repeat business.

You can still find the old engine/transmission designs in developing markets where emissions/fuel economy requirements basically don't exist. Up until recently (like within the past 10 years, I believe), Egypt was making a licensed version of a western car from the 70s.

This is one of the major drivers behind automakers going to EV: fuel and emissions compliance is no longer an issue and they don't need to spend so many resources redesigning stuff.