Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

EnterByTheNarrowGate t1_ix7uel2 wrote

Reply to comment by nstarleather in My Levi's leather belt. 15 years and going strong. I wear it almost daily. by vainamoinens-scythe

>All leather is Genuine, all leather that's not suede (bottom split) is top grain and top grain that hasn't been sanded (corrected) is full grain. The terms encompass one another.

Yes, all leather is genuine by the dictionary definition of the word, however when you see "genuine leather" printed on a belt in Dillards, it's not going to be the same quality as top grain or full grain. It simply means there is SOME leather present in the product. These lower layers are stripped off and often times mixed with other leather scraps or bonding agents.

So yes, technically, genuine leather, top grain, and full grain are classifications of leather. Just like we have classifications of our skin (dermis, epidermis, and hypodermis). If you don't like the word 'classification', you can use 'layer'. Regardless, each has varying degrees of quality and you will not be doing yourself a service by spending lots of cash on a "genuine leather" belt stamped with some highfalutin designer because it's most likely going to bee poor quality.

1

nstarleather t1_ix7viu2 wrote

I agree 100% that most goods stamped “genuine” leather are junk…but I’d also that most mass market leather goods you’ll find at department stores are junk even if they’re stamped full grain.

There are tons of exceptions to the “genuine=bad”thing. I’ve given you Red Wing, but all the time over r/leathercraft we get very skilled crafters from non English speaking parts of the world showing off some amazing creation and using the word “genuine” and some idiot comes in giving them a hard time for using “crappy leather”…they then explain that it’s some quality full grain veg tan and that their word for genuine doesn’t have the same negative connotation. You’ll also see genuine a ton on Japanese or Korean leather goods sites and some Europe as well.

Following your skin comparison: skin=genuine leather it’s the broadest term…the other terms have more specific meanings.

So everyone says that “genuine” is leather mixed with bonding agents and plastic: aka bonded leather but legally that product can’t be called genuine leather without clearly stating it’s bonded or reconstituted:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/part-24

The leather description of “genuine” in those “grades of leather” articles is called a finished split. Suede that’s been coated or painted and sometimes stamped with a pattern.

2

EnterByTheNarrowGate t1_ix7yj97 wrote

>we get very skilled crafters from non English speaking parts of the world showing off some amazing creation and using the word “genuine” and some idiot comes in giving them a hard time for using “crappy leather”

This is why people must use the context in which it is presented in order to discern. Regardless, I believe the marketing world developed that term to purposefully sew confusion among consumers. No one is going to buy a belt off the rack labeled "Scrap Leather" or "Bottom Layer", despite that actually being the case.

I have never seen a department store belt stamped "full grain"? Have you? I'm curious to know this... and how it could be junk (in terms of durability)...

1

nstarleather t1_ix809q8 wrote

Kirkland from Costco does full grain. Slide belts offers all 3 “categories” and I’ve had people tell me they’re all bottom tier quality (side point: if the same brand if offering all 3, run…they’re sourcing from the same cheap-o tannery…good tanneries don’t make finished splits.)

L.L. Bean did a full grain bridle leather belt (made in Uk) that had “genuine leather” stamped on the back.

My point is that these classifications are a shortcut for when you have little info on the leather or brand, not an “official system” like it’s often presented.

You are 100% correct about marketing…but unfortunately “genuine leather” didn’t start as a negative…my company’s tags from the 70’s-80’s say “genuine leather” as a positive. In the mid 80’s as more goods came in as cheap imports, low tier factories started latching on to “genuine” as a buzzword for quality, although real≠quality. The same thing is happening today with full grain.

The reason I always try to correct the idea that this shortcut is reliable is because full grain doesn’t automatic mean quality. It only means that the leather hasn’t been sanded…which is only a tiny part of what goes into quality. Think about it this way: all leather starts as full grain so if you toss out the other things that go into good leather you can produce “technically full grain” cheaper than any other type of leather.

I can buy great quality leather full grain or corrected or even high end suede for $6-$10 per square foot but full grain from China or Pakistan will cost me under $2.

I know these things because it’s what I do for a living, with a couple decades under my belt. I buy , use and sell leather…I can’t trust these over simplified “grades” if I want to produce quality products.

2

EnterByTheNarrowGate t1_ix813mv wrote

>Kirkland from Costco does full grain. Slide belts offers all 3 “categories” and I’ve had people tell me they’re all bottom tier quality (side point: if the same brand if offering all 3, run…they’re sourcing from the same cheap-o tannery…good tanneries don’t make finished splits.)
>
>L.L. Bean did a full grain bridle leather belt (made in Uk) that had “genuine leather” stamped on the back.

For the first two products, I am curious to know if this is a flat out lie. OR if they technically are full grain, but just the top half a millimeter or so and the combined with junk for the rest of the belt thickness.

For the L.L. Bean, that's odd that they would stamp that. Possibly "genuine leather" means something different in the U.K.?

I agree with you. They are being used a shortcuts. Like most things typically are when it comes to marketing. Language is intentionally manipulated to make a product seem more than what it actually is.

1

nstarleather t1_ix81tte wrote

Absolutely brands can lie, there’s no one checking and people can’t tell the difference between lightly corrected leather and true full grain without a microscope. In fact one of the most famous “prestige leathers”, Horween’s Chromexcel is lightly corrected.

However…if we just assume brands are lying then full grain becomes meaningless as well and all we have left is brand reputation.

LL Bean was using the word “genuinely” like Red Wing…it’s like if you went to a fancy restaurant the menu might be divided into simple headings of “beef/sea/chicken/pasta etc” if you read under each plate, you’ll get details about the cut of steak and probably more…the fact that more details exist and are available doesn’t negate the fact that it’s still “beef.” Genuine is the broadest term and can be used legitimately, my take is to look deeper and avoid if you can’t find more info.

1