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javaavril t1_iz8pcw9 wrote

Reply to comment by regaphysics in BIFL Request: Side sleeper pillows that will last at least 5 years by [deleted]

You're not doing something correctly if you're only getting five years on a down fold compression test. It should be longer.

If you don't think people have to worry about offgassing you are the same sort of person who said leaded gas and paint are fine. You don't know. It's okay to not know things. Also it's okay for me to only put organic products next to my families breathing holes, as people have done for thousands of years, and ignore petroleum byproduct foams that have existed for, like, a minute.

You also said that you are sleeping on goosedown. If you believe in foam so much, why aren't you sleeping on it?

To end, why do you think chemicals are on any cotton in my home? Even basic fire retardants dissipate at above 140f, that's industrial standard for production, other pest mitigation for shipping transport might be higher at 160f. I don't have anyone in my home wear or sleep on any material that hasn't been properly cleaned to remove all of that residue and chemical washes on the textile.

Your last edit is a stretch and also bringing up products I don't use. We're talking about pillows and you're bringing up time release aspirin and some gel?

Let's just have pillow talk.

Pillows made of dead bird down, covered in a very specific weave of ticking.

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regaphysics t1_iz9tojd wrote

>You're not doing something correctly if you're only getting five years on a down fold compression test. It should be longer.

(1) Have any evidence to support that? Using what testing procedures? How many compressions? With how much loss in resilience?

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>If you don't think people have to worry about offgassing you are the same sort of person who said leaded gas and paint are fine. You don't know. It's okay to not know things. Also it's okay for me to only put organic products next to my families breathing holes, as people have done for thousands of years, and ignore petroleum byproduct foams that have existed for, like, a minute.

(2) Some chemicals are of concern, especially during and immediately after manufacture. Luckily these products have not been around a minute, and the problematic ones are tested and certified to not be used. And generally, offgassing is overwhelmingly in the first days to weeks of a products lifetime. Usually that is before it is even sold. I worked in automotive safety where vehicle foams sit in the hottest harshest environments for hours and hours. They are required to be tested for offgassing in accelerated aging tests and when they come out of the factory. They are stable after a few weeks.

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>You also said that you are sleeping on goosedown. If you believe in foam so much, why aren't you sleeping on it?

I've had both. Currently I sleep on a Co-op shredded memory foam pillow, which is greengaurd gold certified. I don't worry about it at all. Ultimately, I wouldn't buy another down pillow because ultimately - even if I wanted a natural product - it is just about the worst option. Not only does it sleep hot and provide little support - it also lasts less long than other options. Latex would be my first choice, then buckwheat / millet, then an easily replaceable fiber like Kapok or wool. Down is right down at the bottom - it simply is not a good pillow material.

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>To end, why do you think chemicals are on any cotton in my home?

Funny you would say this: VOCs are more easily removed than the things they use on cotton. Studies on pesticides show that they are not all removed by washing. Furthermore, the chemical finishes manufacturers put on many fibers (to make them shine, make them soft, make them wrinkle less, etc etc) are specifically designed not to wash out.

Don't fool yourself - there is nothing safe about uncertified cotton. You are 100% reliant on certifications to avoid those chemicals. And they are more persistent than the VOCs you'd find in foams.

Edit: I bring up the other things because you seem not to appreciate how ubiquitous they are. Industrial solvents and petrochemicals are in your house. They are in your room - even if they were simply there when the house was built (or if you live in an apartment - they are constantly blown in from the rest of the building). You are not avoiding them just mitigating them - which is fine. But the notion that you avoid petro (and industrial) chemicals is just not accurate at all. If you look at blood testing - its in us all in relatively similar (elevated) amounts.

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javaavril t1_izamcwu wrote

A fold test is far more simple than you think. Fold the pillow in half. If it returns to flat by itself, then it's still fine. If it doesn't, then you can launder to revive, or at worst case after a decade, add some ounces of loft. Cotton mite proof pillow protectors aid in maintenance and add years of use.

You said that down gives you no support and sleeps hot. It's the opposite for us. Our high FP goosedown regulates temperature very well, wicks humidity, and are very supportive. I think we're into personal preference and that's fine, we don't need to agree as comfort is subjective. Saying down is "simply not a good pillow material", when it's the top pillow material used in five-star hotels and by luxury bedding companies, is your opinion. You have every right to it, but mine is different.

Regarding cotton, I noted the temperatures for laundering out chemicals and pesticides. I guess I wasn't clear that if you wash over those target temps, with extended soak and double rinse, the majority of finishing agents, fire retardants, and pesticides are removed. Almost all the textiles that come into our home are are cleaned with that method at 175f prior to being used, to remove the maximum amount of finish product. Everything from shower curtains to dish towels and undies gets a hot wash hello, only protein fibers are excluded from the process.

I do understand how ubiquitous it is, it's impossible to avoid completely, but I also perceive it to be a danger and minimize exposure wherever possible.

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regaphysics t1_izaog0p wrote

>A fold test is far more simple than you think.

This is pretty minimal. You have likely lost way more resilience than you think if that is your only metric. But whatever.

>Saying down is "simply not a good pillow material", when it's the top pillow material used in five-star hotels and by luxury bedding companies, is your opinion.

It is an opinion based on the mechanical properties of the material. Concrete isn't a good bedding material and while that's my opinion, it is informed by the mechanical properties of concrete. Down will lose more resilience than latex (and it has much less to begin with), is less thermo regulating than kapok or wool, and is more or less impossible to replace easily (or adjust). If you like it that is fine, but mechanically it is inferior for what most consider the goals of a pillow. Whether "luxury" bedding companies use it doesn't mean much. Luxury bedding has always been sub-par pillows and mattresses, dressed up with marketing to make it seem exclusive and fancy. Might as well say luxury companies use 1000 threat count sheets, too.

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javaavril t1_izaqivt wrote

Concrete? You're strawmanning a pillow discussion. Steel is also a bad pillow material. Down is widely regarded as an excellent pillow fill. You don't like it. That's fine.

Quality sheets are, tops, 200-400 thread count. 1000 thread count sheets are marketing nonsense of poor quality cut staple multi-ply yarns.

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regaphysics t1_izatcwe wrote

If you actually look at most serious bedding forums and discussions, down isn’t considered a very good pillow fill. Similarly it’s a bad mattress material. Feather beds are a thing too - but again they’re objectively not a good bedding material. It is mostly a relic of the past; down pillows are easier to make than more modern latex and/or wool combination pillows. It has also been something of a status symbol, since it’s soft and used to be costly to obtain long ago.

But again, if you like it, you do you.

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javaavril t1_izav6oz wrote

Sure I'll look at serious bedding forums, instead of every 5-star hotel in the world. I definitely think you're right, that people who's job it is to provide excellent sleeping experience are using the wrong products.

Never said down should be used for mattresses. Horsehair would be my pick there.

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regaphysics t1_izax67s wrote

lol ok, look at hotel bedding 🤣

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javaavril t1_izaxqmk wrote

You have an issue with Frette?

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regaphysics t1_izb5jgt wrote

I mean, I have no reason to dislike the company other than being overpriced for what it is. A down pillow is nothing special - a little over a pound of down put into a cotton case. If I was going to get a pricey high quality down good, I’d get feathered friends. They actually use higher quality down than Frette, plus it’s cheaper.

But like I said, I wouldn’t get either of them. Down is good for one application: light weight insulation items in dry environments.

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javaavril t1_izbae94 wrote

Then why did you LoL at hotel bedding, Frette supplies hotels and is very well priced for the quality of their percale.

I think now I know why you think down pillows aren't good, as you just said that you don't own a pricey high quality one and you think they only weigh a pound.

Stop trying to convince me that I'm wrong for enjoying something that, for me, is supportive, comfortable, breathable and cooling, compostable, and machine washable. Just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean that millions of other people don't like it.

Enjoy handwashing your latex.

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regaphysics t1_izbbyo7 wrote

First off, Frette doesn’t list fill amounts (red flag). I can almost guarantee it’s less than 25 ounces, though. Second, i have used a feathered friends pillow and comforter in the past. They are higher quality than Frette (85% down is unimpressive). If yours weighs a lot, it’s because it’s got a ton of feathers instead of down in it. Like I said, I subbed it out for the Coop pillow and it’s better. Third, the notion that a material quite literally designed by nature for the sole purpose of retaining warmth is “cooling” is a fitting way to end the conversation because you have no idea what you’re talking about and clearly don’t want to learn.

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javaavril t1_izbexkm wrote

Percale, I've been talking about frette percale, hotel bedding. I never mentioned the brand of my pillows. I only suggested to OP 750 FP goosedown. That's what I have and some 800. My pillows are 100 percent goosedown. They are heavy because they are firm. Congratulations on your Co-op pillow that you enjoy. Again it's better for you.

You seem to still be missing the point that your opinion is not fact. You can't convince me that I'm wrong for liking something, that millions of people like as well. You seem to think there's only one answer and that people can't like different things, or place value in natural materials that have less chemicals, are repairable, and more readily decompose at their end life.

Down is breathable and regulates temperature and humidity to not overheat. Down pillows generally sleep cooler than memory foam as there is air circulation between the down clusters.

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regaphysics t1_izbhi9m wrote

I didn’t state anything as fact other than longevity and resilience. Down absolutely is going to lose resilience at a faster rate than many other materials - that is objectively knowable. Whether it’s still ok for your neck/head that depends. Some people can sleep on anything.

I’m not convincing you you don’t like a thing. I stated down pillows won’t last 15+ years as you said. I stand by that, although I’ll amend that to say it depends how you quantify “last.” They’ll lose resilience faster than several other materials.

(And sleeping cooler than a closed cell foam isn’t a high bar. They’re both very highly insulating. Down is used in coats exactly because it stops convection ( air circulation) so well.).

Edit: btw nothing is 100% goose down. That doesn’t exist. Even 1100 fill power is about 2-3% feathers (and often 2-3% down fibers ie broken down clusters). Check your law tag. Guarantee it doesn’t say 100% down. 750-800 fill power is generally about 85% down - of which it’s often only 80% clusters.)

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javaavril t1_izblqck wrote

"simply not a good pillow material". Stated as fact when that is your opinion.

I have pillows over a decade old that are just as fluffy and supportive as my newer ones.

Goosedown excels at thermoregulation, air moves through the pillow, and doesn't cause overheating.

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regaphysics t1_izbmtnp wrote

Yes, not a good pillow material as defined by objective criteria. As I said, if you don’t want to use objective criteria then sure, sleep on garbanzo beans because anyone’s opinion goes.

And no, down doesn’t excel at thermoregulation. It traps heat, limits convection, and doesn’t absorb much moisture - which is how most natural materials regulate - in addition to losing its ability to loft when it absorbs moisture. Again, that’s precisely why down is used as an insulator in jackets (and geese). It’s whole purpose is to trap heat.

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javaavril t1_izbo6qw wrote

That's your opinion. Down is soft, supportive, and breathable. Great qualities for pillows. You're strawmanning again with the chickpeas.

It does, it wicks moisture through filaments and is highly breathable. It regulates the body temperature of geese, it's job is thermoregulation.

Edit: in case anyone gets this far, I highly doubt it, but I had to block that guy because he's made of nonsense.

Geese molt down several times a year, but they always have down, they molt their flight feathers in summer and can't fly for a few months. Down is there for thermoregulation.

"Geese are warm blooded and their temperature must be regulated within a certain limit. This is only possible when enough wind reaches their skin to take away the heat. The down protects the birds from the cold during the winters and keeps the bird well aerated, so that its body temperature is also optimally regulated during the summers."

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