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Comments
my5cworth t1_jbiipfi wrote
This.
I work on 11kV systems, I still had an electrician swap my home DB.
The fun part is paying for someone else to take the responsibility and not giving your insurance a reason to deny a claim.
FUNgasaurTheSecond t1_jbm52r8 wrote
1 billion times this!
D_Holaday t1_jbjnikt wrote
Journeyman Power Electrician for 15~ years,
Im not 100% on Ontario’s requirements are, however in Saskatchewan a home owner can pull a permit to do a service or panel change over, however those two jobs require the homeowner to have a direct family member’s Journeyman electrician licence number filled out on the permit. Tsask will not give a permit for this work without direct supervision/ guidance from a journeyman electrician that is licensed in Saskatchewan.
After the work is completed it would still be subject to an inspection, however re-energizing would happen once the work is complete.
No one other than the utility company in Saskatchewan is allowed to touch the meter and its seal. Our local utility, that I work for, also will no longer book meter disconnects Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Mondays.
In regards to actually doing the work on your own, sure you can just tape up the live ends of the service conductors but anyone suggesting this probably isnt aware of the acr flash hazards of this ‘simple’ task. These wire are not fused or protected. There is no short circuit or overload protection if you have a short. Cat II arc flash ppe is required in the trade to do this work, which includes a shield, class zero gloves, proper fr pants and fr long sleeve shirt. Its certsinly not a low risk job most people assume it to be.
DoItYourSelf2 t1_jbl2y3r wrote
An experienced electrician was blinded at my work when he accidentally stuck a screwdriver in a live 480V panel so for a DIY'er to mess with live inputs is crazy IMO.
Sees like the drug lab guys do it though, bypassing the meter but perhaps they are already living in the edge.
ShadowFlux85 t1_jbi6ob8 wrote
As a general rule if it involves gas or electricity you should just get a qualified professional to do the work
iamalittlepiggy t1_jbiw737 wrote
Stop being a tool and pay for a professional
soniclettuce t1_jbhy42f wrote
Did you try googling ESA inspection?
This answers your questions: https://esasafe.com/notifications-and-inspections/
You need to first notify them that work is happening (this is not the same as a building permit, which you maybe also need) by filing a "notification of work" and paying the fee. Then when the work is done you send in the form for the inspection or call them at the listed number.
allangee t1_jbhdet5 wrote
Rumor has it, you can just pull the meter out like a giant plug while you do the work, and then some responsible homeowner could call the power company and say "I found this wire thing, like a seal, under my meter. my neighbor has one just like it but ON his meter. Should I be worried?"
Who knows? Maybe some vandal tore off the seal.
​
Just kidding. Do it the right way.
AsTheWeedTumbles t1_jbk7f4t wrote
A, um, friend was doing some tractor work near their shop (separate meter) and accidently hit the meter with the bucket. Popped it right out :O He plugged it back in and replaced the ring and the seal. A couple years later the utility company 'upgraded' the meter, replacing the old and didn't notice. Whew!
Fanfootie t1_jbi8zo6 wrote
Hello? Are you still there?
Dingo_The_Baker t1_jbl44zt wrote
I work for the power company (as a desk jockey) and every year we have at least 2 or 3 of our experienced field workers killed either from mistakes or unforeseeable circumstances.
Feel free to put breakers in your panel if you want, but when it comes to the whole panel, let a professional do it. There is a reason you need 8000 on the job hours before you can become certified master electrician.
sir_jamez t1_jbjxgmy wrote
Reasons to hire a professional:
- not dying
- not burning your house down
- not voiding any future insurance claims
- not being liable for any damage for future homeowners (if you sell)
Achilleswar t1_jblh27i wrote
As far as I know (Alberta Electrician, Edmonton Area) to safely change a panel, you need to de-energize the incoming feeders. To de-energize incoming feeders, you need power utility company to pull your meter. To get the power company to do this, you need an electrical work permit from the city. Almost all residential electrical work and permit pulling can be done by the home owner EXCEPT when working on the service. That requires a master electrician. After the work is complete, you call for inspection. Once inspection has passed, power utility company comes and reinstalls the meter.
The way Ive done it, we plan it. Get a permit. Get all the material. Epcor pulls meter at 8am, swap the panel, inspection, meter reinstalled by 4pm.
Long story short. You should hire an electrcial contractor to perform a panel swap.
Clubbingcubs t1_jbicdlb wrote
I'm still alive, I don't recommend this method, if you die that's on you. Cheapest way is also the bravest and stupidest way. Tape each wire lots and don't drink any coffee for a steady hand
Gastronomicus t1_jbhlmtu wrote
You legally need a certified electrician in Ontario to sign off on the work. AFAIK the ESA doesn't fulfill that function and is primarily involved in approving professional work. No matter how you slice it you will need to pay a professional here.
RL203 t1_jbhr9jw wrote
No
A homeowner is allowed to change his own electrical panel.
You phone the ESA, you tell them you want to change your panel, you pay the fee, you cut the tag on your meter, you pull the meter out of the socket, you change your panel, you call ESA and they will come to your house to inspect your work, hopefully it passes and they will put a sticker on your panel, you call toronto hydro and they will put a new tag on your meter.
Tjalfe t1_jbhz1cm wrote
My experience from when I changed the panel is that the local utility disconnected the meter
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi36wo wrote
This, don’t touch the meter, and definitely do not install it after installing your own panel as you will probably fuck something up having no experience and dead short your meter during install and have it blow glass into your eyes.
Or do it… I’ll get double bubble for the call out.
Walkop t1_jbi5ssn wrote
This is not correct in Toronto. In Toronto, the ESA does not do meters, they subcontract to contractors or the homeowner. Everywhere else this is correct.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi6a3t wrote
Who tests the meter socket?
RL203 t1_jbizjny wrote
It's built in a factory to any number of specifications. CSA, ULc, ASTM, etc etc.
The factory will have engineered it, signed and sealed the drawings, certified it, submitted it for testing and certification from the various governing bodies, then during production, the manufacturer will have a series of quality control procedures and protocols in place to ensure compliance, most likely ISO certified.
You don't need to inspect it.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbjcy6p wrote
You definitely need to test a meter socket with a voltmeter or test switch prior to installing a meter into the socket to ensure that the electrician or “homeowner with YouTube” did not fuck up his wiring.
Spoona1983 t1_jbi78ac wrote
Cmon dude thats a bit extreme you just pop the meter pins in the slots.
Perfectly fine if you have the service breaker off.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi815z wrote
Unless you’re not an electrician don’t install your panel correctly and dead short your meter on install hot leg to a ground. I’m sure there are videos you can find on the internet.
DoctorWhisky t1_jbirejg wrote
So uuhhh, let’s say, hypothetically, that a younger guy trying to save money hired a Licensed electrician to replace the panel but saved by doing it without a permit and making it a cash on the side job….so it was done safely, but without any official inspection. Would walls have to come down for a wiring inspection to get an ESA stamp or after 10 years and no fires is it just ok to forget it ever happened?
RL203 t1_jbj0jiy wrote
I dunno.
But let's say that same formerly young guy was now getting older and had learned the pitfalls of cause and effect, like a fire and the insurance company sees a newer panel in an old house and asks about permits.
You could try calling the ESA and asking them to inspect the panel I suppose. They will always help you. And a panel is not hard to inspect. It usually doesn't require opening up walls.
But hopefully that same young guy didn't run any new and obviously new wires. Because new Romex wire is date stamped st the time of manufacture right on the outer insulation. They can easily tell when the wire was installed and if that young guy was the owner at the time, he's in for a world of hurt.
DoctorWhisky t1_jbm3zr4 wrote
And if there is? Say, an entire basement refinished and wired into that new panel? That world of hurt, is that ripping out drywall to inspect wiring or are we talking fines and legal penalties? Or more like, “hey you’re not insure for electrical fires now dummy”.
RL203 t1_jbo35ve wrote
I can't really speak for the ESA.
I suspect that if the inspector wanted to get all involved, he could look at the wires, check out the date stamp. He might ask you who installed these wires. I don't know.
Or he could just do the job he was asked to do, which was inspect your panel and go.
I'm just not sure how you phrase this with ESA. Do you call them up and say, "I have an existing panel in my house and would like to have it inspected"
To which they respond, "why wasn't it inspected when it was installed?"
To which you respond....I dunno what.
You could tell them the truth (The truth will set you free.)
You could lie and say it was there when you moved in and you want to make sure it's ok.
As far as inspecting the wiring goes, if the walls are closed and you don't have photos of the wiring when it was built, the ESA really can't do their job.
Allot of people have a basement built by a neighbourhood contractor who will wire it without permits. That's not that unusual. Some guys know what they are doing and others are hacks.
DoctorWhisky t1_jbp0v8m wrote
I wish I had the money and knowledge at 27 I do now at 40….but thanks for your replies and information man, I appreciate you taking the time.
TheRealRacketear t1_jbi7pv0 wrote
What kind of stupid stuff do you do where this would be a legitimate concern for you?
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi82th wrote
Me? I’m a Powerline Technician so very invested in anything related to the system.
TheRealRacketear t1_jbjgzuo wrote
And why would you assume this person would cause a dead short?
Mnemosynesis t1_jbmiize wrote
Because he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing?
Walkop t1_jbi5rm2 wrote
This is not correct in Toronto. In Toronto, the utility does not do meters, they subcontract to contractors or the homeowner. Everywhere else this is correct.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi6jxf wrote
Also, are meters not tagged in Toronto. None of this makes sense to me. If I can fuck with my meter I can also steal power.
RL203 t1_jbiyfdn wrote
Meters are definitely tagged in Toronto, at least where I live, which is high park. In order to remove the meter head, there is a clamp around the circumference of the base of the meter that is loosened via a bolt. The tag runs through the bolt to prevent it from being tampered with. You can't remove the meter without cutting the tag.
I'm 100 percent sure of this.
Everything I've described, I've done myself.
And I'm currently in the process of a full rewire of my current house. The process for that is the same. Phone ESA, pull a permit. They will inspect at the rough in stage and the final stage.
You get 2 inspections at the rough in stage, if you fail the second inspection, you need to pay again.
RL203 t1_jbiyzq4 wrote
Ok. They contract the install of the tag to a contractor. But I call hydro to arrange for that. As long has ESA has inspected it, they will tag it.
Gastronomicus t1_jbhwen9 wrote
>A homeowner is allowed to change his own electrical panel.
I didn't say otherwise. I said a certified electrician needs to sign off on it and that you will need to pay a professional here. Both are true, though I guess it's a professional certified electrician from the ESA who will fulfill the task.
RL203 t1_jbj1hp2 wrote
ESA must inspect all electrical work done. Even if the electrical work is done by a licensed electrician, the ESA is still required to inspect.
Whether he's an electrician or not, I don't know. He may be a CET or even a P. Eng. Don't know.
TemagamiDry t1_jbjqs4b wrote
And then there’s a fire and your insurance company won’t cover you. Happened to a place near me. The owners lost everything because they did their own (shoddy) electrical work.
RL203 t1_jbjvwff wrote
If it's been inspected by the ESA, your insurance company cannot deny you.
I would fight any such nonsense.
But if there was no permit pulled and no final passed inspection, all bets are off.
bgardsy t1_jbk2djr wrote
Even a licensed electrical contractor cannot pull the meter. The only people that are authorized to touch your meter while it is energized is the utility company!
RL203 t1_jbkik51 wrote
Totally incorrect.
Even if you were to hire a contractor to relocate your service, supply and install a new masthead, panel etc. Your contractor installs everything makes a temporary connection at the mast head, then THE ESA inspects everything.
Once that's done, Toronto hydro will come, make the permanent connections at the mast head and apply the tag to the meter. That can be days or even weeks later and you need to be home when they do it.
Hence the temporary connection.
bgardsy t1_jbmmbk7 wrote
Source of this? Only the utility can disconnect and reconnect power to a residence in Ontario
RL203 t1_jbnzaq8 wrote
You're not disconnecting a service, you're pulling a meter. Panels get changed every day in Toronto multiple times.
And as far as a source goes, I've done it twice in Toronto, both times called Toronto Hydro, both times been told to cut the tag and then have panel inspected by ESA.
I have no reason to lie to you.
The first time I changed a panel, I was surprised myself. Last meter I pulled was 7 years ago, things may have changed, I don't know. Also, in one occasion, I had my panel relocated. It has to be 3 feet from the front of the house I was told. I also wanted to replace the old No. 6 60 amp wires with 100 amp wires. I hired an electrician to do that. He changed from the top of the mast head to the panel, including a new panel. (I then rewired the whole house). The process with the temporary connections at the top of the mast head was how that was handled.
Suggest you call Toronto Hydro.
bgardsy t1_jbqidt7 wrote
You are speaking from your limited experiences and are not even a licensed contractor. I strongly recommend you contact ESA and Toronto hydro and get educated before spreading misinformation. Pulling a meter even as a licensed electrical contractor will expose you to fines and potential electric shock. It’s the law governed by the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. Source: Me. An Electrical Contractor and NCSO
RL203 t1_jbqk840 wrote
Well I did it exactly as described buddy. Everything I did was through the ESA. I have all permits. I have no reason to lie.
And you don't need to be a licensed electrician to rewire your own home in Ontario. And you don't need to be a licensed electrician to add or change a panel.
Or did you not know that.
"If you’re doing your own electrical work: If you are doing your own electrical work, you will need to file the notification. To confirm requirements and file a notification, call 1-877-ESA-SAFE (372-7233). Fees vary according to the type of work you’re doing."
Link:
And here:
https://esasafe.com/compliance/diy-electrical-work/
And yes, I own a copy of the electrical code.
bgardsy t1_jbql7aw wrote
I’m not disputing that a homeowner can change his own panel. They and/ or an Electrical Contractor can’t touch the meter to disconnect said panel. Stay in your lane and go sweep the floor or something
AsTheWeedTumbles t1_jbk6qmt wrote
Sorry, but all those saying "hire an electrician" are either A- electricians that want to get paid or B - too scared of the "electrical magic" to take on something a little technical. 20 years ago I wired my entire home. I worked with city and L&I, followed a code book, and passed my inspection.
No disrespect to electricians. There are a lot of things in electrician world that are complicated and require specialized knowledge and experience. When it comes to a household panel swap, or a simple outlet replacement, 99% of the job is manual labor.
So, if you can do it legally (permits/inspections) and safely (disconnect power at meter) then go for it and don't let the A's or B's deter you.
Having said that, there is one additional thing to consider. Since you are replacing a panel, you are likely going to have to bring some items up to current code and not just replace new like the old. You will want to make sure you know what all is involved in said upgrade before starting.
VitaminSchnee t1_jbijhpm wrote
I was in a situation recently that I needed to replace my power box but after 3 quotes the cheapest electrician wanted 6K which was like 3x as much as I was expecting. I know you are suppose to turn the power off at the street but I was nervous about contacting the power company.
I ended up just doing the replacement live and it worked great. Wrapped a flat head screw driver in electrical tape and disconnected the main power lead into the box then put a cover on each of the large wires.
Basically just copied the breaker sizes and screwed everything back in the same order. Everything cost like 300$ including the box. Downvote me if you want but skilled labor is a joke these days, do it yourself watch all the YouTube videos available then go for it. You could die but probably not.
generalducktape t1_jbix5nx wrote
It's not like it's impossible just very sckech one slip up and kaboom i definitely would have pulled the meater out before doing it like though
EtherWhack t1_jbk64pz wrote
Just like explained in this video
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/safety/arc-flash-vs-arc-blast
bgardsy t1_jbk2rdg wrote
Ridiculous way to get yourself killed.
joe-from-illawong t1_jbjnbno wrote
Op hasn't responded so probs didn't make it.
Larrycusamano t1_jblf49w wrote
Outstanding. I don't understand the downvotes. This method isn't for everyone, but I've done it myself before. Having said that, I think I'll have the meter pulled and do it myself.
rankpandas t1_jbhq7ds wrote
I think this is a "If you have to ask, then don't do it" situation.
I asked an electrician friend and he joked that this is the kind of "repair" after it melts has paid for his cottage in Muskoka.
Good luck, but I would have it done professionally.