Gastronomicus t1_jbhlmtu wrote
You legally need a certified electrician in Ontario to sign off on the work. AFAIK the ESA doesn't fulfill that function and is primarily involved in approving professional work. No matter how you slice it you will need to pay a professional here.
RL203 t1_jbhr9jw wrote
No
A homeowner is allowed to change his own electrical panel.
You phone the ESA, you tell them you want to change your panel, you pay the fee, you cut the tag on your meter, you pull the meter out of the socket, you change your panel, you call ESA and they will come to your house to inspect your work, hopefully it passes and they will put a sticker on your panel, you call toronto hydro and they will put a new tag on your meter.
Tjalfe t1_jbhz1cm wrote
My experience from when I changed the panel is that the local utility disconnected the meter
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi36wo wrote
This, don’t touch the meter, and definitely do not install it after installing your own panel as you will probably fuck something up having no experience and dead short your meter during install and have it blow glass into your eyes.
Or do it… I’ll get double bubble for the call out.
Walkop t1_jbi5ssn wrote
This is not correct in Toronto. In Toronto, the ESA does not do meters, they subcontract to contractors or the homeowner. Everywhere else this is correct.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi6a3t wrote
Who tests the meter socket?
RL203 t1_jbizjny wrote
It's built in a factory to any number of specifications. CSA, ULc, ASTM, etc etc.
The factory will have engineered it, signed and sealed the drawings, certified it, submitted it for testing and certification from the various governing bodies, then during production, the manufacturer will have a series of quality control procedures and protocols in place to ensure compliance, most likely ISO certified.
You don't need to inspect it.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbjcy6p wrote
You definitely need to test a meter socket with a voltmeter or test switch prior to installing a meter into the socket to ensure that the electrician or “homeowner with YouTube” did not fuck up his wiring.
Spoona1983 t1_jbi78ac wrote
Cmon dude thats a bit extreme you just pop the meter pins in the slots.
Perfectly fine if you have the service breaker off.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi815z wrote
Unless you’re not an electrician don’t install your panel correctly and dead short your meter on install hot leg to a ground. I’m sure there are videos you can find on the internet.
DoctorWhisky t1_jbirejg wrote
So uuhhh, let’s say, hypothetically, that a younger guy trying to save money hired a Licensed electrician to replace the panel but saved by doing it without a permit and making it a cash on the side job….so it was done safely, but without any official inspection. Would walls have to come down for a wiring inspection to get an ESA stamp or after 10 years and no fires is it just ok to forget it ever happened?
RL203 t1_jbj0jiy wrote
I dunno.
But let's say that same formerly young guy was now getting older and had learned the pitfalls of cause and effect, like a fire and the insurance company sees a newer panel in an old house and asks about permits.
You could try calling the ESA and asking them to inspect the panel I suppose. They will always help you. And a panel is not hard to inspect. It usually doesn't require opening up walls.
But hopefully that same young guy didn't run any new and obviously new wires. Because new Romex wire is date stamped st the time of manufacture right on the outer insulation. They can easily tell when the wire was installed and if that young guy was the owner at the time, he's in for a world of hurt.
DoctorWhisky t1_jbm3zr4 wrote
And if there is? Say, an entire basement refinished and wired into that new panel? That world of hurt, is that ripping out drywall to inspect wiring or are we talking fines and legal penalties? Or more like, “hey you’re not insure for electrical fires now dummy”.
RL203 t1_jbo35ve wrote
I can't really speak for the ESA.
I suspect that if the inspector wanted to get all involved, he could look at the wires, check out the date stamp. He might ask you who installed these wires. I don't know.
Or he could just do the job he was asked to do, which was inspect your panel and go.
I'm just not sure how you phrase this with ESA. Do you call them up and say, "I have an existing panel in my house and would like to have it inspected"
To which they respond, "why wasn't it inspected when it was installed?"
To which you respond....I dunno what.
You could tell them the truth (The truth will set you free.)
You could lie and say it was there when you moved in and you want to make sure it's ok.
As far as inspecting the wiring goes, if the walls are closed and you don't have photos of the wiring when it was built, the ESA really can't do their job.
Allot of people have a basement built by a neighbourhood contractor who will wire it without permits. That's not that unusual. Some guys know what they are doing and others are hacks.
DoctorWhisky t1_jbp0v8m wrote
I wish I had the money and knowledge at 27 I do now at 40….but thanks for your replies and information man, I appreciate you taking the time.
TheRealRacketear t1_jbi7pv0 wrote
What kind of stupid stuff do you do where this would be a legitimate concern for you?
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi82th wrote
Me? I’m a Powerline Technician so very invested in anything related to the system.
TheRealRacketear t1_jbjgzuo wrote
And why would you assume this person would cause a dead short?
Mnemosynesis t1_jbmiize wrote
Because he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing?
Walkop t1_jbi5rm2 wrote
This is not correct in Toronto. In Toronto, the utility does not do meters, they subcontract to contractors or the homeowner. Everywhere else this is correct.
Mnemosynesis t1_jbi6jxf wrote
Also, are meters not tagged in Toronto. None of this makes sense to me. If I can fuck with my meter I can also steal power.
RL203 t1_jbiyfdn wrote
Meters are definitely tagged in Toronto, at least where I live, which is high park. In order to remove the meter head, there is a clamp around the circumference of the base of the meter that is loosened via a bolt. The tag runs through the bolt to prevent it from being tampered with. You can't remove the meter without cutting the tag.
I'm 100 percent sure of this.
Everything I've described, I've done myself.
And I'm currently in the process of a full rewire of my current house. The process for that is the same. Phone ESA, pull a permit. They will inspect at the rough in stage and the final stage.
You get 2 inspections at the rough in stage, if you fail the second inspection, you need to pay again.
RL203 t1_jbiyzq4 wrote
Ok. They contract the install of the tag to a contractor. But I call hydro to arrange for that. As long has ESA has inspected it, they will tag it.
Gastronomicus t1_jbhwen9 wrote
>A homeowner is allowed to change his own electrical panel.
I didn't say otherwise. I said a certified electrician needs to sign off on it and that you will need to pay a professional here. Both are true, though I guess it's a professional certified electrician from the ESA who will fulfill the task.
RL203 t1_jbj1hp2 wrote
ESA must inspect all electrical work done. Even if the electrical work is done by a licensed electrician, the ESA is still required to inspect.
Whether he's an electrician or not, I don't know. He may be a CET or even a P. Eng. Don't know.
TemagamiDry t1_jbjqs4b wrote
And then there’s a fire and your insurance company won’t cover you. Happened to a place near me. The owners lost everything because they did their own (shoddy) electrical work.
RL203 t1_jbjvwff wrote
If it's been inspected by the ESA, your insurance company cannot deny you.
I would fight any such nonsense.
But if there was no permit pulled and no final passed inspection, all bets are off.
bgardsy t1_jbk2djr wrote
Even a licensed electrical contractor cannot pull the meter. The only people that are authorized to touch your meter while it is energized is the utility company!
RL203 t1_jbkik51 wrote
Totally incorrect.
Even if you were to hire a contractor to relocate your service, supply and install a new masthead, panel etc. Your contractor installs everything makes a temporary connection at the mast head, then THE ESA inspects everything.
Once that's done, Toronto hydro will come, make the permanent connections at the mast head and apply the tag to the meter. That can be days or even weeks later and you need to be home when they do it.
Hence the temporary connection.
bgardsy t1_jbmmbk7 wrote
Source of this? Only the utility can disconnect and reconnect power to a residence in Ontario
RL203 t1_jbnzaq8 wrote
You're not disconnecting a service, you're pulling a meter. Panels get changed every day in Toronto multiple times.
And as far as a source goes, I've done it twice in Toronto, both times called Toronto Hydro, both times been told to cut the tag and then have panel inspected by ESA.
I have no reason to lie to you.
The first time I changed a panel, I was surprised myself. Last meter I pulled was 7 years ago, things may have changed, I don't know. Also, in one occasion, I had my panel relocated. It has to be 3 feet from the front of the house I was told. I also wanted to replace the old No. 6 60 amp wires with 100 amp wires. I hired an electrician to do that. He changed from the top of the mast head to the panel, including a new panel. (I then rewired the whole house). The process with the temporary connections at the top of the mast head was how that was handled.
Suggest you call Toronto Hydro.
bgardsy t1_jbqidt7 wrote
You are speaking from your limited experiences and are not even a licensed contractor. I strongly recommend you contact ESA and Toronto hydro and get educated before spreading misinformation. Pulling a meter even as a licensed electrical contractor will expose you to fines and potential electric shock. It’s the law governed by the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. Source: Me. An Electrical Contractor and NCSO
RL203 t1_jbqk840 wrote
Well I did it exactly as described buddy. Everything I did was through the ESA. I have all permits. I have no reason to lie.
And you don't need to be a licensed electrician to rewire your own home in Ontario. And you don't need to be a licensed electrician to add or change a panel.
Or did you not know that.
"If you’re doing your own electrical work: If you are doing your own electrical work, you will need to file the notification. To confirm requirements and file a notification, call 1-877-ESA-SAFE (372-7233). Fees vary according to the type of work you’re doing."
Link:
And here:
https://esasafe.com/compliance/diy-electrical-work/
And yes, I own a copy of the electrical code.
bgardsy t1_jbql7aw wrote
I’m not disputing that a homeowner can change his own panel. They and/ or an Electrical Contractor can’t touch the meter to disconnect said panel. Stay in your lane and go sweep the floor or something
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