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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd2e6eg wrote

Reply to comment by dhekurbaba in Why should wires not be twisted before putting in wire nut? by dhekurbaba

It is very difficult to join stranded and solid wires in a wire nut. What often happens is that the solid wire doesn’t really get twisted and the stranded one kinda wraps around the solid one.

Ever since I’ve learned about Wago 221 wire lever nuts I’ve been using them everywhere. Much easier to use as an amateur and can easily join stranded to solid. You can even join up to 5 wires together which is something that I believe even professional electricians struggle with.

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tsunamisurfer t1_jd3mn94 wrote

As someone who just rewired and added lights to a bedroom, I cannot recommend the Wago wire nuts enough. Makes everything so much simpler. I even put them in the outlets because it makes it way easier to disconnect an outlet if you have a "pigtail" from the wago nut to the outlet - if you need to disconnect the outlet, just unlock from the Wago, no need to untwist the wire from the screw on the outlet!

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YurAvgDroidGuy t1_jd549nk wrote

And then back stab your receptacles from your wagos. That's easy fire recipe, no matches required! 🤣

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tsunamisurfer t1_jd56c5x wrote

I don't get it, is this a fire hazard or something?

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Sevulturus t1_jd5bhbt wrote

Backstabs definitely are. Not all "wagos" are created equal. So you need to be careful with them.

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tsunamisurfer t1_jd5patj wrote

I mentioned specifically that it was convenient when you don’t backstab ( I assume that is when you don’t wind it around the nut?).

What kind of wagons are a hazard? I’ve seen electricians who recommend them

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Sevulturus t1_jd5w673 wrote

I don't trust the non-levered ones that come with cheap fixtures specifically. Overall, I don't like them on anything that moves. I hate backstabs as a rule, or anything that relies on spring pressure to hold.

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tsunamisurfer t1_jd660zp wrote

Oh for sure. I didn't realize Wago sold the backstab-type wire nuts. I agree the backstab type are less stable. My recessed lights came with one of those cheap backstab nuts and it definitely didn't hold the wire as well. I've pulled quite hard on a levered wire nut and it didn't budge, so i feel pretty good about those ones.

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Wellcraft19 t1_jd5e2t9 wrote

Backstabbing outlets should be banned. I wonder how that ever passed through NFPA. They seem to work OK for some 10 years, then slowly start to weaken, creating endless problems.

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Wellcraft19 t1_jd5ebb6 wrote

Backstabbing outlets should be banned. I wonder how that ever passed through NFPA. They seem to work OK for some 10 years, then slowly start to weaken, creating endless problems. I do understand it’s much faster for an electrician to backstab over using the screw terminals, but ‘fast’ should not be the operative word when it comes to electrical installations. Quality and safety should be.

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Bun_Bun_in_heaven t1_jd63k5l wrote

Can you please explain what backstabbing is?

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YurAvgDroidGuy t1_jd64q1f wrote

Pushing a 14awg wire into a small hole in the back of a receptacle. Continuity is maintained essentially via a spring clip, rather than bending the wire around the terminal screw which is the correct method. While somehow this system passes ul certification, it is not a good idea for many reasons, and should not be considered a permanent installation. Just like wagos. Wagos are great in a pinch, but not a substitute for a permanent connection, if you were to ask most certificated electricians.

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Bun_Bun_in_heaven t1_jd65e1o wrote

That scares me now. I changed several lights in our house and installed 7 dimmers mostly using the Wagos. I cut and stripped the wires cleanly, made sure the wires were all the way in the Wagos and that the Wagos were closed. What are your thoughts, is it safe?

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd9gqef wrote

> if you were to ask most certified electricians in the United States *

Europe has adopted these en masse.

I personally think it’s just a culture thing. Like plumbers that won’t use PEX or manifolds. Or mechanics that don’t want to work on electric cars. Tradesmen in general don’t like changing their methods as technology advances. Probably because they’re afraid of something breaking and then getting blamed for it down the road.

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LilyWhitesN17 t1_jd3ch5w wrote

When it was solid and stranded mixed, would always loose twist the solid wires, wind in the stranded and have it longer than the solid pair...when finishing the twist it tightens up holding the stranded. Single solid...and single stranded, ugh..

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nullpotato t1_jd45f1c wrote

For DIY there is nothing better than Wago. I love them for semi-permanent stuff. Understand why pros might not want to spend several dollars per box on connectors but for small projects they are amazing.

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd47naw wrote

Why not for permanent installs? Too expensive?

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nullpotato t1_jd4bca6 wrote

Cost. I personally use them everywhere but that's because I hate wire nuts.

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YurAvgDroidGuy t1_jd7b3wp wrote

A large pack of wagos on Amazon from a container ship from who knows where may not have any certification. If you use wagos, I'd want them to be UL certified, a quality brand. I've seen some that are a stab type, some that have a lock down bar. The stab/push in type is just like back stabbing a receptacle. The lock down bar type seem to be better but pre-twisting wires and then locking down with a new wire nut is still the best way to maintain continuity and prevent a loss in amperage. If you connect a 12awg to a push in wago and have another 12awg wire continuing to a load, you may as well just use a 16awg wire to send to the load because that push in wago only has partial connection with the line. Think of it like this. Take a stranded wire and cut half the wires off on the stranded end and then twist it together with another stranded wire that has not been cut. The uncut wire will send the line power to the thinner cut wire and have a loss of power sending through the thinner wire. This is the issue with wagos, along with concerns over wires coming loose, wago falling apart, longevity, etc.

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd7ot1b wrote

You’re right that there’s some crap that’s sold on Amazon. If it’s too cheap it’s probably crap.

The push in ones are used by some people but the internet almost exclusively recommends 221s (lever nuts).

The NEC is 99% about safety. Lever nuts have been determined to be safe.

A smaller connection at a specific point will increase the resistance a bit, that’s true. The difference is marginal though. It may get a bit hotter at the connection but that’s not nearly the same thing as getting hot along the entire cable run. The 12AWG cable will still be capable of transmitting 20A safely along the entire run.

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YurAvgDroidGuy t1_jd7zbu4 wrote

Good info. In the automobile industry, some of these computer modules are throwing codes for slight changes in resistance, for a frayed wire, or 1 strand in a bundle coming loose, very very sensitive. Obviously lights and small electronics are not likely to cause an issue in a home, where loads are not resistance sensitive, but if you have small resistance changes all over your home, and throw a toaster into the mix, a washing machine, a space heater, and these small changes in resistance in my opinion, just are not worth the risk of something happening one day.

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd82021 wrote

Automotive wiring and building wiring is totally different 🤣🤣

You’re not going to use wire nuts in your car, right?

Building wiring is 90VAC-240VAC. By definition it has a huge range. Automotive wiring is typically 10.5VDC-15VDC (for cars anyway). Of course it’s more susceptible to resistance.

And as for safety, I watched a video where a WAGO 221 survived 100A. It only started failed at 120A and even then it was the plastic housing that melted, the connection was still fine.

I’m personally of the opinion that wire nuts are just as safe or unsafe. Even when they’re properly terminated they can still fail. This is doubly true when they’re used to terminate more than 2 wires or when they are used to terminate stranded to solid. I have personally removed 2-3 of these where one of the wires just fell right out of the wire nut 😂😂

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SangeliaKath t1_jd56akn wrote

>Those won't work in a factory setting. Where the idea is to make as many electrical items as possible. Be they beer signs, or even toys. They are not suitable for assembly type connection work.
>
>I spent nearly 20 years working in a factory that made fancy lamps aka beer signs. And I spent 95% of that time working in the wire connection sections of the lines.

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd57sky wrote

Sure, every cent is important in such a setting so it makes sense to not use them.

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SangeliaKath t1_jde7bsf wrote

Not only is every cent they can save. But also the speed of how and what can be used.

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MosesZD t1_jd49he3 wrote

I just bought an assortment pack of them. I have to rewire some parts of the house this spring and add some new lights and ceiling fans I am so tired of twist couplers...

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Undercover_in_SF t1_jd5htuy wrote

Thanks for this! I have a house with old solid wires and had resigned myself to calling an electrician because I didn’t want to buy a soldering gun.

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd5k78n wrote

A soldering gun? What would you want to solder?

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Undercover_in_SF t1_jd5qyad wrote

Can’t find it at the moment, but I definitely ended up on a few “how to” pages that recommended solder the two together then wire nut over the bond to make sure the stranded didn’t pull free. I obviously didn’t do much further research, or I would have run into wago’s!

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd6a0b6 wrote

Soldering is a great way to make an electrical connection but unfortunately it doesn't make a good mechanical one. This is why you shouldn't twist wires together in-line. You should twist them together and then fold the twist over. Much more mechanically strong even if it doesn't look as pretty.

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Bun_Bun_in_heaven t1_jd63dbe wrote

Yes! Wago is amazing! Question: if I have two wires to join but the only Wagos left are three-slot (or three wires to join and what’s left is a four-slot), is it ok to leave one slot empty but closed?

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd69s3i wrote

Yeah, that's fine. Wago's only come in 2, 3, and 5 position versions btw.

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Bun_Bun_in_heaven t1_jd6r458 wrote

Thank you! I used all 2’s and have larger ones left but didn’t remember there wasn’t a 4 :)

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Bun_Bun_in_heaven t1_jd6ref8 wrote

What are your thoughts on backstabbing with Wagos? Should this be a concern for small boxes? I replaced a bunch of dimmers and at times I had to place the wires inside tightly. All are wrapped with electrical wire.

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PlatypusTrapper t1_jd7knr8 wrote

I’m not an electrician so I really can’t say with full confidence.

I’m not sure what the backstabbing comment has to do with the WAGOs. The ones usually recommended by the internet are the 221s which are never nuts. No backstabbing with those. Are you referring to specific receptacles? I don’t backstab with those either. I’ll side wire or J-hook then if side wiring isn’t available.

I’ve seen some videos of people satisfied with products like the WAGO 773 but I don’t have experience with them.

I don’t think there’s an issue if wires are snug. As long as they fit in the box it should be fine.

The purpose of electrical tape is basically done insurance to make sure nothing touches the wires accidentally. It does basically nothing for mechanical support.

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schmag t1_jd32vah wrote

really a stranded to solid splice shouldn't be nutted... it is allowed, but like you said is difficult to get a good solid connection.

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