Shower valve versus handle replacement?

Submitted by knewtoff t3_11df72h in DIY

The middle handle that switches between faucet and shower just does not stay on. The inside is dry rotted and frankly it’s just old. I have seen replacement handles, but it looks like they use a screw versus a clamp (and even if it was a clamp, the post it clamps too is also just old and losing shape). Am I limited to fixing this by replacing the whole valve stem system? I have found various videos that say to turn the water off, take off handles, take out valve stem (using a special tool?), take to hardware store to find the replacement and then move in reverse. Any other advice?

I’ll try to figure out how to add pictures from mobile. (Edit to add: https://imgur.com/a/1o9tH25)

Another edit: I took apart one of the handles and have these parts, which look a bit different than what has been shared so far: https://imgur.com/a/sCLxIaX — any followup insight?

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Royal_Acanthisitta51 t1_ja88mrc wrote

You need to replace the whole cartridge.

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jayb151 t1_jaa0u4o wrote

I did this when I broke the cartridge trying to replace the handle.

Also took the chance to add shut off valves right before it hits the shower so any changes in the future should be way easier

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user_n0mad t1_jaarpv5 wrote

Why I never thought of adding a shutoff when I remodeled my bathroom is beyond me...

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jayb151 t1_jaay6dq wrote

I've been adding them to pretty much all my big plumbing jobs. Kitchen sink was leaking... Added shut off. My water heater now has 2 shutoffs within 2 feet of easier... Though that's more so I can flush it yearly as an on demand heater. And now my shower has shut offs. The only plumbing I haven't touched yet is my half bath. Not touching it until I plan to renovate.

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MechCADdie t1_jab44h4 wrote

You would think that it would be a plumbing code requirement...and yet, here we are

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waitsandgarcia t1_jabsnl6 wrote

The problem is where to locate the values. The bathrooms I’m familiar with don’t have an easy place like under sink or behind toilet; the plumbing is all in the wall.

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lionseatcake t1_jacl50k wrote

Quarter turn shutoff valves makes future you look at past you like he's an absolute legend.

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FabioTheGeek t1_ja8961p wrote

Definitely get a set of Shower Valve Sockets and take off your Diverter valve to get a replacement. They are usually under $10 and you can get a handle set to match or change up the whole look.

This video applies to most diverter valve like yours: https://youtu.be/KjmAZjfpEq8

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ThePresidentsNipples t1_ja8c7sk wrote

Be ready to replace the seats too (the part your cartridge butts up against in the back there)

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knewtoff OP t1_ja8inyi wrote

Are those sold separately or in the same kit?

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ThePresidentsNipples t1_ja8k00a wrote

I've never got them together myself, so I would assume not. Get a flashlight when you pull the cartridge and look for a seat. if there is one, look for wear and chipping. If its beat take it out by unscrewing it with a big flat head or two flatheads, or go get the tool specific for seat pulling(its cheap). Take that seat into your hardware store to compare it so you get the correct one..... looking closer at your pics, those definitely look old enough to have seats.

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BYoungNY t1_ja9cxqz wrote

Fyi there's a seat removal tool that you need. Its usually square shaped and sold either at home Depot or Amazon for cheaper. You'll use it once every 10 years or so, so it's up to you weather it's worth the price or paying someone else. If you have an old diy'ee on your street I guarantee he'll not only let you borrow it, but be glad that it's getting some use.

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fangelo2 t1_ja9qeib wrote

And you will never find it again when you need it. Possibly the day after you buy another one

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WhyWouldYouBother t1_jaa6jms wrote

When you're putting away the new tool. Right where it logically should go.

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Roundaboutsix t1_ja9aeiy wrote

Separate. Take the old cartridge with you. (I did this last week. My hardware store had the replacement washer for 19 cents.). If the cartridge is corroded/damaged, a new one should be available for less that $10. Replace or reuse the knob. (I wouldn’t worry too much about the seats. I’ve replaced several washers and cartridges and the seats have been fine.)

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ltrain430 t1_jabg4yz wrote

I've done 3 and never replaced the seat either. I sold the house 4 years after replacing 2 so maybe they have issues now

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eljefe512 t1_ja9guzr wrote

I literally bought two replacement stems yesterday from HD and the seats were included in the package.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja8ilz9 wrote

So a set like this (if I wanted to replace all of them)? https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Products-Tub-and-Shower-Rebuild-Kit-for-Indiana-3-Handle-Faucets-111862/310228392 I would need to remove the handles and get the cartridges out to take to Home Depot to actually choose a kit that matches right?

While I don’t mind getting the specialized sockets for that cheap, someone else mentioned two crescent wrenches — is that plausible as well?

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FabioTheGeek t1_ja8l153 wrote

The Valve Socket is required to remove the diverter properly and then you would be able to match it up correctly yes. You can use a crescent wrench on the socket but I usually use a long screwdriver through the whole in the socket for extra leverage.

When you remove the valve check to see if the washer/oring was left behind in the valve body itself and if there is any damage inside so as to not ruin your new valve.

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DoctFaustus t1_ja9ahc6 wrote

My place has Sterling brand shower valves. Neither Home Depot or Lowes carries parts for them. I have to go to Ace for plumbing replacement parts. In my town, Ace has a much greater selection than either of the two big boys. They don't carry a lot of other stuff like lumber. But that's not what you're after in this case.

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Offandonandoffagain t1_ja9qrnv wrote

In my experience, Ace has more knowledgeable people working, who are actually very happy to help.

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Roundaboutsix t1_ja9atqy wrote

Crescent wrenches, slip pliers and vice grips will work fine. Just be careful not to strip the nuts/fittings which are most likely brass and thus softer than the tools.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja9qnn7 wrote

I just wanted to follow up, I removed one of the other handles to see what was in there and got this:

https://imgur.com/a/sCLxIaX

This looks a bit different than other things that have been shared so far and not sure if this is a different process or whatnot?

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FabioTheGeek t1_ja9tgam wrote

That looks like a Glacier Bay Diverter Cartridge, Home Depot sell replacements under the Danco brand.

Those cartridges are usually just press fit in there but you might be able to just take that extension piece to the store and match it up if you don't feel comfortable pulling the cartridge out.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja9vrkz wrote

Ah!!! Thank you!! I think I found it - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glacier-Bay-Aragon-Tub-and-Shower-Connector-RP90016/206131710 — after pulling apart, the cartridge seems fine, it’s just this extension piece that is the issue

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FabioTheGeek t1_ja9wxze wrote

You're welcome, glad to hear it. Hopefully they also have a handle on stock for you 👍

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knewtoff OP t1_ja9x8ir wrote

Let’s not get too ahead of ourselves… lol

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Grippenripp t1_ja9txta wrote

The diverter valve is in the middle. Its different than the hot and cold valves. Those are just on off valves. Determine which valve is faulty and replace it. But if it were me Im replacing all 3 while Im in there.

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Boredbarista t1_ja8c513 wrote

That's a pfister system. They are very easy to work on, you just need two crescent wrenches and a screwdriver. Lots of videos on YouTube for them. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pfister-910-022-Crown-Imperial-Replacement-Diverter-Stem-132410/205383581

You need to replace the whole valve. Yours is really messed up from someone clamping too hard on it. You can see how bent up the end is.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja8iu8p wrote

It’s interesting because everything shared with me so far is metal, but mine are like a hard plastic.

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Royal_Acanthisitta51 t1_ja8mmtl wrote

It’s usually chrome plated plastic covers that slide or thread over the brass valve.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja9qpf8 wrote

I just wanted to follow up, I removed one of the other handles to see what was in there and got this:

https://imgur.com/a/sCLxIaX

This looks a bit different than other things that have been shared so far and not sure if this is a different process or whatnot?

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Boredbarista t1_ja9v6vi wrote

Hmm, yeah, it's not what I thought it was. You can still take that to home depot or a plumbing supply store for a replacement.

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redirdamon t1_ja962ld wrote

Pedantic comment follows -

This is NOT dry rot, this is corrosion. Rubber dry rots, metal corrodes.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja9jjfc wrote

But it’s a hard plastic? At least, it seems that way. It definitely does not feel like metal. But it’s very old, and may just be giving that appearance

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redirdamon t1_ja9pxfp wrote

If it's "very old" it's probably not plastic which has been prevalent in the plumbing industry for the past 20 years or so.

It's probably POT metal.

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saetam t1_ja9ry3j wrote

Dope. Good info to know so you don’t sound like a tool looking for your tool so you can use the tool for the tool, cuz you’re a tool.

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sharfpang t1_ja9cgbm wrote

While you're not "limited", if the selector one is in such a state, the hot/cold are likely not much better and may fail quite soon. It's probably best to bite the bullet and replace the whole thing while you're at it instead of doing the same work 3 times in 3 consecutive years as one valve after another fails.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja9l2aq wrote

Yeah I’m leaning towards replacing all three handles and valves because I agree

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Rafi89 t1_ja9cnhh wrote

You've gotten good input but I will ask, do you have access to the back side of the shower wall and do you plan on living there for a while? I ask because, and please don't take this the wrong way, that looks pretty old and busted and it would be a shame if you invest time and money into a temporary fix of something you want to use for any length of time. Based on the tilework and state of the faucet it looks like it's been DIY-ed at least once already so you may want to contemplate more of a replacement and tile refresh than a patch job.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja9jthb wrote

Oh you’re fine! I bought the house two years ago (my first one). Built in the 50s and the previous homeowner of 30+ years did lots of DIY stuff. I do have access to the back, on the other side is the kitchen and specifically the gas stove. What more would need to be done from that end versus replacing the cartridges/valves from the front?

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Rafi89 t1_jaatwjv wrote

Well, if you can get into the wall from the far side you can replace and replumb the faucet valve without demoing the tile wall and make sure that the valve is properly secured. Also, depending on if you have an accessible crawlspace and how ambitious you are you could address any water pressure issues or realize any dreams you have for an elaborate multi head shower setup by running additional lines or larger lines.

Also with the faucet and tub spout pulled you can use a grout knife to cut out all that shitty grout and sealant and regrout the wall. I'd strongly recommend using a knife and not an oscillating multi-tool with a diamond grit head unless your hands are way steadier than mine, heh. But a multi-tool would be great for cutting in from the back side. I'd also strongly recommend renting or buying a PEX-A expansion tool and using PEX-A for any plumbing as it's just an amazing system and running PEX-A into the crawlspace to sharkbite connectors to the copper lines unless you want to sweat PEX-A adapters to the copper. This allows access to the sharkbites in the future.

I know this is a lot all at once but the work is not terribly complicated, personally I think the hardest bit would be blending the drywall patch over the far side which may be harder or easier depending on how the wall is.

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Western_Detective_84 t1_jab2jo5 wrote

I was thinking something similar to Rafi89's reply just a bit ago:
If you can get to the plumbing from the other side of the wall, it could be what you need to do. Go to Youtube and look up Vancouver Carpenter on how to cut, and then patch a hole in drywall. He's got lots of great drywall vids. Once you've learned a little about how to do it RIGHT, it isn't so hard. But it's easy to do bad drywall jobs. I was doing bad ones for years until I found his vids.

Maybe you DON'T have to do this, and you can find cartridges that will replace what you've got. If you don't see the right thing at Home Depot or Lowes, find a plumbing supply, and pay a little premium for the free advice they've given to help you find - or not find a replacement.

However, I also do NOT like the looks of that grout. I suspect if you took some of that tile off you'd find black mold from moisture underneath. If you started taking tile off, you'd quite possibly end up putting up complete new concrete board to replace the sheetrock and doing new tiling. I wish you luck, and hope that regrouting does what you need!

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Rafi89 t1_jabjm79 wrote

Yeah, heh, I don't want to be 'dude, you should retile that wall and probably the whole bathroom' but looking at that tile wall... the combination of cracked grout and smeared silicone... ick. But I have a fair amount of experience with tile and don't want to assume, heh. The wonderful thing with tile is it really isn't very expensive, it's just work.

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TangNaU t1_ja9eazs wrote

OP to help with any confusion that entire thing you are going to replace is called a "diverter" and you'll need the copper pipe for the tub faucet. Better to convert the rest of it to PEX and install shutoff valves while you're in there, and close the cut out wall on the other side you'll need to open to get to it with an access panel.

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dashiling t1_jaa04cj wrote

Great advise! think PEX and sharkbite fittings

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TangNaU t1_jaa73ku wrote

Oh yeah sharkbite fittings for sure good catch

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OutlyingPlasma t1_jaauynl wrote

Whats on the back side of the valve? Is it a wall you can easily cut out and repair or is it a nightmare of cabinets on top of tile or an exterior wall?

If it's easy to cut out and repair, like a simple Sheetrock and paint job, then that might help determine what you want to do. Personally I loath dual knob showers so I would try to install a new faucet if I could but I'm not sure I would go so far to rip out tile to do it. I would however open up a hallway or bedroom wall in a heartbeat.

They make shower cover plates that would convert your existing 3 hole setup into a single hole setup so that's an easy fix if you do go with a single knob mixer.

Also, if you do rip out the back wall, if practical, you could consider putting a small door in the wall for the next guy who might want to replace it. Sometimes that next guy is you.

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8088PC t1_jaavcf9 wrote

Harbor Freight sells the wrench kit. It looks like several different size old style spark plug wrenches. I had to replace the whole cartridge and stem together. More than I wanted to pay originally, but much easier. Come to think of it, it is kinda like changing spark plugs.

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vinegarstrokes420 t1_jab8rfa wrote

Oh wow, I'm doing exactly this right now! Almost exact same setup with a loose middle knob on a questionably old valve. I have access through the back and tile is still decent, so decided to replace the whole thing with a single handle and 3 to 1 hole cover plate.

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BobbysWorldWar2 t1_jaafs7a wrote

How old is this? My hot water valve got stuck/old so I started replacing the valves. Center valve came out no problem. Hot water one wouldn’t budge no matter what. Called a plumber and turns out it was original to the house and the valve was pressed in. Only way to replace was to force it out and press in a new one.
I opted to replace the entire valve setup by busting a hole through the opposite wall.

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TakeFlight710 t1_jaax3yv wrote

At least the diverted looks ok. Surprising considering the rest

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transdimensionalmeme t1_jab6k8y wrote

Whatever you get buy something that allows you to turn the shower on an off but that has separate, single control for temperature

Everything else is pure garbage

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Acceptable-Nerves t1_jab9v6n wrote

My apartment has the hot and cold water handles all opposite. Every single one. I'm used to it after six years. But I love when someone comes over and tries the hot water or shower. Haha. Landlord offered to switch them years back but I said it's funnier to just leave them.

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Klaatu162 t1_jabfb2s wrote

All codes today require a temperature balanced valve to avoid scalding. Don't waste time and money trying to fix what you have. Take this situation as an opportunity to install a new valve system with diverter. I would also suggest new backerboard and new tiles for your entire tub surround. If not the whole surround, then just the wall with new hardware.

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JooosephNthomas t1_ja92n7v wrote

You're looking at 600-1000 dollars to be replaced professionally. 200-500 on your own, this will show. and maybe 40 bucks to refurbish what you got. However, the refurbish, you may not get handles that match or fit right given the age. The cartridges or valve bodies should be available. Make sure to match them up. Also seats in the bottom, inspect nad ensure they are good. No chips or broken. Inspecting the valves themselves can give clues to their condition. If there the rubber is destroyed on the bottom of the valve body I would highly consider changing them. The metal seat on the valve can come into contact with the seat and damage it. Typical if it was not maintained.

In my honest opinion, a delta r10000 rough in with the bigger plate to cover the holes. Turns 3 handles into a single. Makes everything easier going forward and lifetime delta carts replacement which is nice. That is the 500-1000 dollar Cad range. Maybe less in the US, still labour can be 3-5 hours on something like this plus materials. This will cost the most, but will make the shower much nicer, easier to use and will also have a thermostatic mixing valve. But it costs a heck of a lot more. So yeaaaah, refurbish or pony up. I would HIGHLY recommend hiring a professional for a fresh instal.. Not saying you can't do it, but leaks behind the wall are expensive......

​

EDIT: Change rough in, had R220000, which is over kill, just needs the r10000

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MET1 t1_jaae2dq wrote

Yes - I ended up doing similar in my bathroom and it's been great. I did have a plumber do it and your cost estimate is good.

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JooosephNthomas t1_jaahaln wrote

I work in a plumbing shop. Don’t know why I got down voted. Hahaha. These supplies usually don’t have shit offs either so be prepared to shut the house down…. Unless you had a sick plumbed who isolated groups. But I doubt that.

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ChefRoquefort t1_ja914yp wrote

This might not be an optiomal solution but it would be somethibg easy to model and 3d print.

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knewtoff OP t1_ja92mbb wrote

Yeah that is completely inaccessible to me lol. But thanks for the idea!

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exiestjw t1_ja97rbs wrote

Theres probably one at a nearby library!

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