Is this a good plan on removing a probable lead paint ceiling?

Submitted by threwthelookinggrass t3_11dhpr6 in DIY

In the process of a kitchen renovation. I wanted to remove the soffit above the upper cabinets and found that the drywall ceiling was a false ceiling.

The space between the true ceiling and false ceiling has pretty poor/no insulation on the exterior walls. The true ceiling is also in terrible condition. (Thanks corner cutting boomers of the 80s)

I’d like to raise the ceiling to the original ceiling’s height, add insulation, and dry wall everything.

Based on the age of the house the paint is probably lead based.

I’m in Pennsylvania.

#pictures

https://imgur.com/a/TGFPKRi/

#questions

  1. what are the walls made of? Plaster and lathe? Any special considerations for removal or disposal of that? Will I be able to just put drywall on the studs after ripping out the remaining lathe?
  2. My plan is to wear appropriate ppe (respirator, suit, booties, googles, gloves, etc.), use a hepa filter on my vacuum to clean and the two bucket wet wipe down method, have plastic barriers between rooms, have box fans blowing air outside, and demo both ceilings down to the original floor joists. Am I missing anything?
  3. I plan to eventually rent out this house. Anything I should keep in mind as I go through this?
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Adam2013 t1_ja8oqg2 wrote

FYI the insulation batting that's up there either has an oddly variegated dark back side of the vapor barrier or you've got a mold issue too. Find the source of the leak and fix that.

As far as the lead paint, there are cheap test kits from your local big box store. Ask the paint department where to find these.

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HomoplataJitz t1_ja9fspb wrote

I'm gonna go on my hunch and say that might be the tar backed vapor barrier on the fiberglass insulation that you're seeing there. Too uniform otherwise ...

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja9ge4t wrote

Here is the best pic I have of the insulation backing from when I opened the lower walls.

https://i.imgur.com/YpHI7vX.jpg

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HomoplataJitz t1_ja9p5p5 wrote

Yeah that's your classic tar paper. Doesn't look like you have mold to worry about ... Just the asbestos and lead.

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Sid15666 t1_ja9ms99 wrote

If you go down the rabbit hole of testing I hope your budget handle that. Mask up with good respirator, googles, and plenty of ventilation and rent a small dumpster.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja9n2i8 wrote

The company I used to test the dry wall only charged $50 a test. If the plaster is not asbestos I think I can handle it on my own. If it is asbestos that's probably not something I want to do myself.

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Icy-Ad-9142 t1_jaaudtm wrote

Smart move, always hire pros for asbestos. If you fuck it up, you might not know until it's too late.

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THEMOXABIDES t1_jaagoey wrote

Yeah definitely test it. I had what I thought was lead based paint in my old house and it turns out it was just oil based, which apparently can also crack and peel similarly to lead. The amount of work and precautions required for lead paint removal warrant buying a test kit. In fact, I’d buy 2 kits. I didn’t trust the first one so I did another one, and felt much more confident about removal with just basic PPE.

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Onitsuka_Viper t1_jaaqmss wrote

That's not mold at all. Worrying people online isnt cool

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shifty_coder t1_ja98o5b wrote

How old is the house, exactly?

You may be (un)lucky enough to have both lead and asbestos!

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja99cyz wrote

120+ years. I'm fairly confident that the paint is lead.

I know the drywall mud has trace amounts of asbestos in it from previous testing. I guess I gotta get the guy back out here to test the plaster?

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jtablerd t1_jaa96f4 wrote

Or you can just assume that the lead is present. RRP (Renovate Right Program, the EPA regulations for lead renovation) says that the presence of lead doesn't matter if you're the homeowner which is super stupid but I'm glad you're taking precautions.
You're pretty close with what you're doing but:

  • need to put plastic on floor and covering any fixtures/furnishings, sealed with tape to the wall. Must be completely sealed. You'll still have to hepa vac everything after you get this up.
  • Disposal is just wrapping up that floor covering and all other debris in 2 plastic bags, each wrapped up and taped or tied off, then you can put in regular waste
  • Any vents or other openings to other parts of the house must also be sealed. (Doorways)
  • I'd strongly recommend renting a negative air machine rather than your box fan plan, they're super cheap. Not required by the regs for homeowners but is for RRP work so please spend the 40 bucks or whatever it is if you'll only need it for a day, or whatever however long you need it... Get a negative air machine please
    If you have any other questions please give a shout, I'm happy people are trying to be safe about this.

Source: licensed lead renovator specializing in antique new england homes

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_jaaalww wrote

I really appreciate you taking the time to comment something helpful. I did a take home test and it came out positive. Id rather just be safe and clean than find out in 20 years I inhaled a bunch of shit.

Is the plaster having asbestos a valid concern (house built in 1900)? I’m much more apprehensive about doing that myself if it is.

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jtablerd t1_jaaeni5 wrote

Oh my I'm happy to help...fwiw I rarely test and we assume that it's present in homes of a certain vintage because it's there. Lead is also likely there in any stained finishes mainly pre 1960s so be aware of that too if ever refinishing floors or stained trim, the varnish used to have lead in it... Anyways, my expertise and certs are related to lead and not asbestos, but afaik the same dust and air control mitigation measures with regard to people and air are generally the same. Full face respirator (shave and leak test!), hooded tykek suit, booties, etc. Since you're working at home I'd be as nude as possible underneath, remove PPE outside and controlled as you can.

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fordp t1_jabb2oq wrote

Definitely shave and the best DIY leak test you can get on that mask

There is no known minimum exposure to Asbestos for mesothelioma!

Look into asbestos abatement / sample asbestos abatement protocols for an idea of what needs to be done.

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jtablerd t1_jaaf8o0 wrote

Re reading your original post I would demo as little as possible, do you have to pull the whole ceiling?

Was the soffit added later? Maybe when HVAC was put in or last kitchen reno? Lil weird to see a proper lathe & plaster ceiling with a soffit

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_jaahgom wrote

I think I could just patch the hole I made in the soffit and just forget about the second ceiling. I mainly want to get rid of the soffit but it’d be nice to reclaim the height and fix the insulation.

There’s no hvac, plumbing, exhaust in the false ceiling. The pictures I linked are between the false ceiling and the plaster ceiling. The false ceiling ends where the soffit begins if that makes sense. They didn’t drywall wall to wall, only up to where they started the soffit.

https://i.imgur.com/DMhWvEH.jpg

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jtablerd t1_jaajckt wrote

I would very honestly recommend that you don't open that any further and patch the hole, I'm sorry...that (definitely) lead substrate is so unstable that if I ran into that at my own (1912) house - I'd set down my tools and set a 20-30k budget to deal with it (which would be pulling the whole ceiling+ but still wouldn't be lead abatement). And for that kind of money I'd deal with the stupid ass soffit and spend it elsewhere. It's totally possible and legally you can tear that shit up as a homeowner but I wouldn't touch it were it mine... Just my $0.02... I'm sorry
If you are hellbent or if you have any other lead questions happy to advise you how to do as safely as possble but don't.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_jaalmun wrote

Again I really appreciate your insight. I got a lead guy coming by later this week to give me his opinion and I’ll get my asbestos guy back to give me his. I just want to make sure the thing is as safe as can be structurally and from a lead/asbestos perspective. I’d hate for shit to start falling down onto the false ceiling.

It really pisses me off that A) some fucker did 90% of the job by smashing up the walls and converting them to drywall but left the last 10% for the next guy and B) they didn’t take the drywall ceiling wall to wall and then add the dumbass soffit.

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jtablerd t1_jaaoh40 wrote

Yeah it's fucked a, b, and c is my professional opinion but I'm not on site or actually giving a professional opinion. I'm so glad you're consulting w folks local to make sure it's all safe... Most folks dgaf. I've been at it professionally for almost 20 and only screaming about lead about ten years ago when I exposed a kid and it got pretty real

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jtablerd t1_jaak2hi wrote

A bit of insight on what I see in this photo - there's a calcimine coating as well as lead paint (you can test it for lead for kicks, calcimine is less harmful - used to be used as a washable coating for ceilings etc when we burned coal or wood inside) - the calcimine is the unstable coating (if you have any other old ceilings in your house that aren't covered they may develop a pattern like this but on a way lesser scale as they're coated more recently). The instability of those ceiling coatings means that it will all come off.. In very small and particulate pieces.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_jaalwhu wrote

Rest of the house has original height ceiling, some sort of texture, and has been recently painted. Doesn’t look anything like that.

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zilch839 t1_jab539p wrote

You can get cancer from smoking one cigarette. You're not going to get cancer from smoking one cigarette. Both comments are basically true. That is why we're less concerned about homeowners dealing with lead then we are professionals. A carpenter or a plumber or a demolition worker is going to be exposed to a thousand times more dangerous things than someone that remodels 10 houses in their lifetime. Enough so that we need to take measures to protect. A little lead paint in your body at the age of 30 is probably not going to kill you. In fact, not even close.

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Tactically_Fat t1_ja91pq1 wrote

Have the paint tested first.

And as /u/therealw00zy stated - you'll probably also really want to have the plaster tested for asbestos. SOME plasters used to contain it.

Have both things tested before proceeding.

You can probably do a simple Google Search for lead and asbestos testing in your area. Call a few and ask how they do it. SOME places will just let you bring in your samples in baggies - then charge a certain fee per sample.

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Well_technically t1_ja9tiwe wrote

Plugging EMSL Analytical for DIY asbestos testing - double bag your sample in ziplock bags (sample only needs to be a square inch or two), fill out a Chain of Custody form, and mail that to your closest EMSL lab with a 1-2 week turnaround time (it will be pretty cheap, definitely less than $50, probably closer to $25). Check the box for PLM EPA 600/R-93/116 (<1%) or PLM EPA NOB (<1%), for VCT/mastic use the 2nd option. Their website explains what the different testing methods are so based on the material you need tested you'll need to select a different way to analyze the sample.

Or pay a 3rd party to collect the sample and submit it for analysis - the takeaway is that asbestos is no joke and you should confirm it is present (or not) before any type of demo (hopefully not abatement).

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Tactically_Fat t1_jaclzsh wrote

> EMSL Analytical

Way back when I was a Licensed Asbestos Building Inspector - this is the lab that my company would send our samples to for testing.

I've also recommended them to a co-worker who is soon to be remodeling his '30's bungalo-style home.

Also recommend EMSL.

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Tenpat t1_ja9reji wrote

It is surprisingly easy to breathe in a whole lot of lead dust and have that lead contaminate your entire house if you clean this up wrong.

I suggest hiring someone who does the work professionally to get it done especially if you have kids. Because it is far too easy to bring that lead home via your clothes or even just on your body and expose them to it negatively affecting their development.

Just for reference OSHA requires that people who work with lead change into work only clothing which the employer pays to have washed, that their job have dedicated shower facilities for them to wash the lead off, and that their street clothing be kept in a locker away from the work area. And that employees are monitored for lead levels.

edit: might as well have them check for asbestos too.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja9sfte wrote

Yeah my preferred way to handle this would be to deal with it professionally. Just sucks to have to pay a few grand to clean up someone's toxic half assed job from 40 years ago.

Also sucks that I already tested for asbestos once before finding this goofiness.

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Tenpat t1_ja9szsl wrote

>Just sucks to have to pay a few grand to clean up someone's toxic half assed job from 40 years ago.

You are paying that to prevent it becoming your toxic problem. Worth it. Also might be worthwhile to have your lead levels checked because just opening that area up probably disturbed a bunch of lead based paint dust.

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HerandBelle t1_jaa62k5 wrote

You could seal the room off with double plastic and tape sealing every doorway. Open a window in the room if it has it and tape a fan into the opening blowing out, to get negative pressure. If you have HVAC vents, disconnect them from the ceiling and tape and seal the ends of the supply. Do the same if you happen to have any return in the room. Obviously turn off HVAC. Buy a nice full face shield mask and a tyvek suit from a big box store. Buy a shop vac with a dust filter AND the bags that go inside that capture everything you suck up to save the filter. Buy a couple boxes of contractor bags and seal yourself in and then tear out everything and bag it up. Would cost you like a couple hundred dollars, be pretty easy and essentially have zero risk of any contamination or health problems. Vac the room twice, take the bags out and vac it again. You'd be more than fine.

I've done like. . . a dozen or more of these tear outs on similar houses. Most were in much worse shape than what you are showing.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_jaa7f0g wrote

Same advice if the plaster turns out to be asbestos? House is from at least 1900.

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inkseep1 t1_ja9cjzz wrote

I can't see your pictures. Is everyone afraid of a little dust and mold? I have torn out plenty of plaster and mold while using appropriate PPE (paper dust mask, t-shirt, jeans, shoes, and gloves) and nothing bad happened. Rip it out, throw it in the regular trash. Put your drywall right over the studs.

By the way, even if the ceiling is cracked plaster, you can drywall right over top of it. No need to remove it. Put furring strips on the ceiling across the joists. Put up the drywall on the strips. Extend your light fixture boxes to the new surface. If it is a tall ceiling, no one will miss the inch of height.

When you rent the house you give the tenant a lead hazard disclosure form. There are options of you saying you know there is lead, or you don't know if there is lead. If you test it and there is lead then you know. Or you can just check the 'I don't know box.' Either way they get a pamphlet that says that lead is bad. The main thing is that your exposed paint has to be free from chips, peeling, and cracks. I have never seen an inspector, including a HUD inspector, actually test for lead paint.

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Roundaboutsix t1_ja9ek0l wrote

100% correct. I’ve removed hundreds of old boards covered in lead paint, without wearing any protective gear, unless the paint is breaking up and peeling. If you’re talking about sanding old paint, then PPE is a must. Just pryng off an old board and tossing it in your truck bed, shouldn’t be an issue.

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Revolutionary_Tale17 t1_ja9mobm wrote

Lead paint isn't a big issue but asbestos is. My uncle never thought much about it till he found he had mesothelioma at 55. I would never screw around trying to deal with asbestos.

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HerandBelle t1_jaa6wob wrote

Did your uncle do a single renovation around asbestos, or did he work in it his entire adult life?

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FreeDig1758 t1_jaa8s4l wrote

That's just it. We remodeled our kitchen. When I was in the attic it was blown in insulation. Cool.

Then we ripped down the kitchen cupboards and soffit but the soffit false ceiling caved and guess what was buried under a foot and a half of blown in? Vermiculite.

That shit dumped all over us.

I could be dead in 20 years or I could get nothing. Who knows

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amboogalard t1_jab6ybw wrote

I learned recently that only the vermiculite mined in Libby, Montana contained asbestos. Granted, it was a large mine, but the other sources of vermiculite around the world and in the US are by and large asbestos free, or sometimes come up trace positive.

So this could either be very reassuring or much more distressing, depending on your proximity to Libby, Montana.

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FreeDig1758 t1_jacf55t wrote

I had it tested and it was asbestos. Surprisingly the 9x9 tiles under the carpet were asbestos free.

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Would-wood-again2 t1_ja9ka4f wrote

Will you be eating the tasty paint chips? If not, don't worry about it.

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HerandBelle t1_jaa6k51 wrote

You don't understand how much this sub freaks out over everything lead and asbestos.

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zvii t1_jaaaezj wrote

Right? Unless you're sanding lead paint or eating the chips, I don't believe you have anything to worry about. Just a lot of people repeating information incorrectly

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2dayman t1_jaaywd3 wrote

im not saying that definitely isnt lead but in my experience lead paint doesnt fail in sheets like that. it cracks and alligators like a half burnt piece of wood if that makes sense. this looks more like an old oil based paint.

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rabb1thole t1_jaa3lrh wrote

Another blame the boomers rant. Really?

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zvii t1_jaaaymk wrote

Just the way to weed out all the shitty responses

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Orway2000 t1_ja8qc4o wrote

So can I through shade on your generation for overthinking everything and getting muddled in poorly informed details. Cuz you do and we think all y’all r fucking it up in ur own generational way 💋-Gen X.

  1. Test the paint ur self or contact a lab. Don’t assume and spend a lot money/effort for a nonexistent risk, smh.
  2. Look at the website of ur disposal company for info on lead paint/drywall disposal.
  3. Maybe consider the project is now over ur head, HA, and you should find a qualified professional.
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GargantuanGorgon t1_ja9f6bn wrote

>So can I through shade on your generation for overthinking everything and getting muddled in poorly informed details. >Cuz you do and we think all y’all r fucking it up in ur own generational way 💋-Gen X.

But why though? I've got plenty of esoteric knowledge in my head and am always giving advice on repairs and technical things, to people older and younger, without feeling the need to be a prick about it. I've got the knowledge because it's my area of interest and experience, they don't because they aren't predisposed toward these interests. Doesn't make me better or them worse, we're different people from different walks of life with different things to offer.

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ToolemeraPress t1_ja8sog5 wrote

Agreed. You are talking a gut demo with mold in the air. Thats old plaster. What shape are the original joists? What shape is the attic?

There was a reason previous owners installed a drop ceiling. My bet is there is some history there. Stenciling along the top? Timber framed structure?

Before you blame boomers, consider maybe you could learn about renovating historic houses… which I have done in the past.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja8ubuc wrote

So yeah that's part of why I'm posting here, to find out what I don't know.

The room directly above the kitchen is a bedroom. This is the only room in the house that has a ceiling this low. I guess I just don't understand why they'd go through the trouble of removing the plaster from the walls but put a drop ceiling in. There's no hvac or plumbing that goes through the false ceiling. The only electric going through it is for lights in the false ceiling.

If there is a leak it's probably from the wood panels under the siding, which is in poor condition in some places from what I've seen. It is indeed a timber framed house.

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therealw00zy t1_ja8zas0 wrote

You might want to test the old plaster for asbestos while you're testing the paint for lead.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja93hh2 wrote

I haven't tested the plaster, I already had a guy come test for asbestos before I found out about the plaster.

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9yr0ld t1_ja8vlsw wrote

I doubt there is any leak. that would show through the ceiling in time. you mentioned there is no insulation on the exterior wall there. so that's what is causing possible mold growth --- condensation from cold air meeting warm air in this space.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja8wvu7 wrote

Is the mold concern coming from the color of the vapor barrier of the insulation? I know that the insulation dates to around 1970 based on the parts I've already replaced in the lower walls. It wouldn't surprise me if there are small holes in the side paneling and I really doubt it has a moisture barrier on the outside.

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9yr0ld t1_ja8xa90 wrote

the vapor barrier and the studs by that vapor barrier look a little suspect. but I'm judging based on two pictures without much detail.

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ToolemeraPress t1_ja8y7cv wrote

I believe they wanted to preserve the Penn Dutch stenciling along the top of the wall. You’re dealing with a timber framed or hybrid timber/balloon frame. That changes what and how you renovate. Typically there is no half way. You gut to the original framing and horizontal plank wall structure. Examine what is or is not there and make plans on the fly.

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ToolemeraPress t1_ja8zg7t wrote

Do you know the original date of the house? Are there additions? A pic of the house will help.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja95835 wrote

The county says it’s 1900. It’s a two story side by side duplex. The only addition to house is a two story porch that reaches the bottom of the second story bedroom window (the bedroom above the kitchen im working on).

The porch was put on the 80s I think.

The porch is through the wall my light is on in this picture. The white shit at the bottom is all dust.

https://i.imgur.com/wMjg98f.jpg

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ToolemeraPress t1_ja9k73h wrote

Most likely it was a single family split into a duplex. In any event you have a bunch of demo first, plans second.

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threwthelookinggrass OP t1_ja9mp8e wrote

I've wondered about that but I think it's always been a duplex. It has separate basements, shows up on maps around 1900 as being two addresses, and has transoms over the entrance doors. This area was very working class around that time and this would have been a large house and pretty crappy house for someone who could afford a house this big.

But yeah, just trying to get all my ducks in a row to make an informed decision on the demo.

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