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MC_Pterodactyl t1_j87gxdb wrote

I haven’t listened to this documentary, but as someone who works in the field of autism education, no definitive cause has been found. Period. End of sentence.

Be extremely suspicious of ANYONE claiming they can source autism’s cause. There is a known link to gut health with many people with ASD, but there is no understanding or consensus yet on how they interact, where the comorbidity arises from or how exactly they are related. Certainly it is not yet known that one causes the other.

People trying to source the cause of autism have done a GREAT deal of harm to that community, including the crooked Andrew Wakefield who lost his license in his vicious attempt to build panic against a 3 in 1 vaccine to sell his own. He used autism as a scapegoat to pad his pockets.

Without watching the documentary I can’t say more than either this comment title is misleading or the documentary itself contains actual misinformation. So just be wary.


CAESTULA t1_j87w9i7 wrote

I'm autistic. I posit that there aren't more autistic people now than before, we've merely gotten better at noticing autism. Seriously, you cannot convince me people like Sir Issac Newton staring at prisms all day, and the people who drew snails fighting rabbits in illuminated manuscripts for weeks at a time, et al, weren't neurodivergent.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j88vb2z wrote

I 100% agree with you. Gregor Mendel studying beans and putting them into charts to track their qualities that closely? Sounds like a hyperfixation to me.

Alan Turing being able to work incredibly long hours on the wildly complex math behind the Turing machine cracking the enigma code?

I believe it has been a consistent genetic trait expressed throughout all human history. Much like my own diagnosis of ADHD. It’s just no one knew that it was a real difference in processing the world and just used designations like “odd” or “quirky”.


CPTDisgruntled t1_j89q5nm wrote

Or “lazy” or “ill-disciplined” ☹️


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8a5thw wrote

Oh, I hate that. So much. I personally feel repulsed by power, hierarchies and the power structures they rely on, but the typical track is to find hierarchies and rise on them. Chase money, get a big house, all that.

The fact that the priorities I have and way I spend my free time is often judged as lazy or farting around aimlessly when the traditional culture is to sit down and watch a 4 to 6 hour televised sporting event. I spend that time painting or constructing ludo narrative embracing rules systems for table top RPGs or designing adventures for them. I have a thing afterwards that is mine and will always be.

And when I play a great video game for hours, I am challenging myself and often enjoying a profound story. People just don’t “get it” so I must be wrong and lazy. Hate it, hate it, hate it.


anotherjustlurking t1_j8ajfxm wrote

Dude. Perhaps you’re different but know that your being different is a great thing for all of us. Your differences mean we’re more likely to survive as a species and prosper. But it’s a heavy burden to bear…thanks for being who you are - I’m glad you’re here.


dbx999 t1_j8cqqz0 wrote

At what point are we able to differentiate lazy people from neurodivergent or does neurodivergence explain all behaviors outside of normal?


Luke_Orlando t1_j88207l wrote

Honestly If you wouldn't draw a rabbit knight on a snail horse stabbing a distraught looking monk in the butt with a spear then I don't need to know you.


[deleted] t1_j88f6o5 wrote



CAESTULA t1_j88fsao wrote

Not talking about doodles. Are you not familiar with margin drawings in illuminated manuscripts? Scholars have spent years just trying to figure out what they mean.


[deleted] t1_j88gjan wrote



phantompenis2 t1_j88okx5 wrote

yeah i used to draw spirals a lot, makes sense to give it a little head and tail and boom you've got yourself a 2d pet


theyellowpants t1_j898nix wrote

Based on the damage snails can do to my garden I’d enlist the help of knights to save my plants


SteveBored t1_j87m3kw wrote

Autism is also just diagnosed way more often these days.


Tigen13 t1_j88u91d wrote

You didnt need a tone of brains to hunt and farm. Especially working as a group. That is most if human history. Diagnosing autism would have served no purpose in 99% of human history.


thegodfather0504 t1_j89rmnt wrote

So why is it such a big deal now? Why can't people collectively just accept weirdness as a character trait or something and move on? you know, like the old times.

Perhaps it's the rising standards along with education. Being literate isn't enough anymore?


vilebubbles t1_j8ac9ky wrote

A lot of autistic people cannot speak, need aac or other help communicating, need help with nutrition as they will not eat, have self injurious behaviors. Everyone only seems to think about the “good kind of autism” in these comments.


Tigen13 t1_j8ehid2 wrote

Education requirements and specialization of trade. It just makes life more complicated and therefore much more difficult for those with severe limitations.


thegodfather0504 t1_j8feaf9 wrote

But autistics can excel in both of those! It's the social behaviour requirements. All of a sudden, "charisma" is being preferred over everything.


Tigen13 t1_j8fooct wrote

Can excel but usually don't. Additionally, being extremely poor in one important area can cancel out benefits on other gifted areas.

Then add in the financial means and nurture of the parents. It's an uphill battle.


Deadfishfarm t1_j89xehu wrote

Wrong. Relationships were more important for survival back then. A person that can't form close relationships among the group is a liability


MehtefaS t1_j8a1ywy wrote

Lol as if people with autism can't form close relationships


Tigen13 t1_j8eh9pq wrote

Apparently not...... I am interested to learn more about what they did with autistic people since apparently nobody cared about them.


MehtefaS t1_j8a1um1 wrote

Back in the day your whole future was pretty planned ahead for you, by your family. There was a ton of routine and the social hierarchy was a lot easier to read, ie, the Royalty was on top and the handicapped peasants at the bottom. Even in our parents and grandparents time, a lot was set in stone for your future. Farmer's son? Raised to take over the farm. It was a lot easier to blend in, and even if you stood out, you would just be the odd weirdo that wouldn't hurt a fly


schietzs t1_j88eq6t wrote

The causation could just as likely be backwards. Autism may be linked with a preference for processed foods that are simple and predictable leading to decline in gut micro biome.


[deleted] t1_j89779e wrote



schietzs t1_j89ezdk wrote

I feel like I need more background. It's an interesting new field. I don't really understand the internal microbiome and what factors affect it. Does the gut microbiome change the internal one?


cherrybounce OP t1_j89g8tt wrote

I am not trying to be opaque. I just don’t want to mischaracterize anything and I hope people who are interested, actually watch the documentary. I use the word “internal” because the theory is that the rise in C-sections are causing infants to not have the interaction with the Microbiome from the birth canal, and it could affect them in unseen ways.


cherrybounce OP t1_j88uzyz wrote

Neither the title nor the documentary is “misinformation.” The scientists theorize that the rise of allergies, obesity and autism “may” be linked to the loss of our microbiome and I clearly used the word “may”. They certainly don’t state it as a fact, nor did I in the title. They are researchers with Rutgers University, not Andrew Wakefield type quacks, and have studied this for decades and are respected in their fields and the doc is about their research and double blind studies. I am not sure how a hypothesis a scientist is testing is “misinformation.” And in the case of autism, it’s not the loss of our “gut” microbiome they believe to be the cause. How do you confidently state something is misinformation and you haven’t seen it? Just give it a watch.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j88zna4 wrote

Autism “may” also be caused by overstimulation of the amygdala during infancy, causing that part of the brain to be oversized and develop faster than others.

Wakefield, who harmed the autistic community so badly and continues to harm them to this day with his misinformation, also used the word “may”. He, too, thought swelling in the gut “may” lead to autism.

The problem with the whole insinuation is the notion or idea that autism could have been prevented “if only we had…”. This leads to parents mourning their choices, treating the child differently and focusing on trying to cure them. Whether or not that is the documentaries intent, I’ve worked in the world of children with autism long enough to see the difference between parents who think their child’s behavior is somehow curable versus those with broad acceptance that this is just who their child was always going to be.

I believe you there IS a link between a neurodivergence in all forms and delicate gut health. Most people I know with neurodivergent traits have gut health issues, I have IBS myself, my partner does too. I’m ADHD, they are autistic. My issue is your title parses as “internal microbiome may be linked to the rise in…autism.”

I find this misleading because we have to determine first that autism actually IS on the rise, or if diagnostic ability has risen to the level to catch and diagnose cases effectively. Secondly, the sentence insinuates that internal microbiome is raising the number of autistic cases.

Because of this, and because most people are NOT experts in ASD and there is so much misinformation about it, I wanted to disclaim for those going in how this documentary may be trying to sell a point as very likely when the agreement in the field is that it is highly irresponsible to claim we are anywhere close to an understanding on the cause.

The documentary could be fine, but I wish you had made a separate sentence that stated “It also touches on the feedback links between ASD and gut health.” Then I wouldn’t have felt the need to warn people to have their guard up going in.


cherrybounce OP t1_j89111j wrote

It’s actually not the gut microbiome they believe is related to autism. I am not a scientist and I didn’t want to characterize their research by putting it into my own words.

Your idea that “if only we had” leads to people mourning their choices is odd to me. If scientists actually do discover a preventable cause for any disease or disorder, isn’t that a good thing so we can then change our behavior?

I am not pushing anything and I know even mentioning the word autism is tricky. I just thought the documentary was well done and presented legitimate research by well respected scientists. You seem to have an interest in this. I would like to know your opinion after you watch this.

Here is the bio of one of the scientists:

Martin J. Blaser holds the Henry Rutgers Chair of the Human Microbiome at Rutgers University, and serves as Director of the Center for Advanced Biotechnology and Medicine. Previously, he served as Chair of the Department of Medicine at New York University. A physician and microbiologist, Dr. Blaser has been studying the relationships we have with the human microbiome, the bacteria that live in us. Over the last 20 years, he has also been actively studying the relationship of the human microbiome with both health and important diseases including asthma, obesity, diabetes, and cancer. Dr. Blaser has been the advisor to many students, post-doctoral fellows, and faculty. He has served as President of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, Chair of the Board of Scientific Counselors of the National Cancer Institute, and Chair of the Advisory Board for Clinical Research of the NIH. He currently serves as Chair of the Presidential Advisory Council for Combatting Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria (PACCARB). He was elected to the National Academy of Medicine and the American Academy for Arts and Sciences. He has authored over 600 original scientific articles, holds 24 U.S. patents, and he also wrote Missing Microbes, a book targeted to general audiences, now translated into 20 languages.


drewbles82 t1_j88h5xw wrote

Its similar with Crohns and Colitis...they haven't found what causes it yet but I would bet money on it, that its the Western diet (as its rare elsewhere) Stress and this. A combination of all 3, very closely linked. I have colitis but have avoided stress and changed my diet and see a massive change...I'm also autistic


Thebluefairie t1_j88k27q wrote

It is not rare elsewhere. Autism is blind to culture. There are also cultures that are blind to autism. You should see what they do to autistics in China


theyellowpants t1_j898x2x wrote

I think they were saying crohns and colitis are rare elsewhere


atiaa11 t1_j89bhmi wrote

Thanks for sharing your experience. The title of the post says “…may be linked…” not “…is linked...” And since you haven’t watched it yet, you may learn something!


Deadfishfarm t1_j89wivp wrote

No, you're being way over the top. The title says it MAY be linked to those things. It's not even remotely a definitive, misleading claim


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8a4ygh wrote

sigh The way you’re handling this isn’t giving me a lot of faith in it.

I had hoped there could be a dialogue about how complex the issue is but I guess not. This doesn’t feel like the way we grow or seek the truth.


Deadfishfarm t1_j8ahez9 wrote

There can be a dialogue about it. That's the point of saying it "may be linked". As in there's suspicion or reason to believe there could be a possible link, and we should look into it more to see if there really is a link. That's how science works. We think up a hypothesis, find evidence, and conclude the experiment.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8awbou wrote

I get you. I think the problem is this has been abused very, very badly in the past. See Wakefield and his vaccines study, also convinced there may be a link between autism and bowel disorders. He abused the entire system, and chose autism as the lynchpin because many parents responded powerfully to the idea it had all happened for a reason and might have a solution.

This Dr. Brasler doesn’t sound bad, his fecal transplants sound promising in many ways to many groups. Plus it’s replicable, which is a huge boon to it being something that can prove useful.

But the problem I have is the insinuation that the rise in autism diagnoses is linked to something. The last time we went there it did decades of harm to the autistic community. It still isn’t solved today.

The public is very bad at interpreting scientific studies, and hear “a study concluded” as “truth verified”. It takes a very long time to build consensus, and therefore extremely measured use of language can be extremely helpful on the public facing side to stem conclusions by the public and then harming a whole community.

The research is valid, and should continue, but Wakefield used and abused may horribly, and so autism should receive extra care in terms of how future studies portray it lest a bandwagon of harm spark again. It’s a more sensitive arena of study than others.

That’s all I’m saying.


MaximilianKohler t1_j8acuco wrote

There is nothing misleading about the title or the documentary. There have been numerous studies showing the gut microbiome to be causative. ASU did an FMT study and the patients improved significantly.

Your comment is far more misleading.


funnyfaceguy t1_j8iza1o wrote

The study you mention does not claim or supply evidence for a casual relation between gut health causing autism.

It provides evidence for a treatment that reduces autism symptoms. That does not have inherent implication on gut health causing Autism.

I can treat the flu with an antihistamine, that doesn't mean the presents of histamine causes the flu.


MaximilianKohler t1_j8k91hh wrote

That's not accurate at all. You may want to take some time looking through the wiki in my profile.


funnyfaceguy t1_j8kbtrc wrote

I took a look and the ones providing any evidence for causality are all studies done on mice that are highly speculative. Even the studies authors encourage caution about jumping to any conclusions.

In not trying to discredit the research, but it's far too early to make any definitely claims from so I think the original comments skepticism is warranted.

Although it's obvious from your profile that you're far from partisan on the matter.


farm_sauce t1_j899ugw wrote

I find microplastics and forever chemicals a much more compelling argument for a cause, but the truth is that its undoubtedly a combination of many factors


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8a6lmc wrote

The counter argument is that they seem to have always been a part of human culture, long before chemicals were commonplace and plastics invented. But no one had the knowledge to identify what was happening.

I am against micro plastics and industrial chemical waste, but I don’t feel convinced they cause everything that is off the path termed “normal”.

For instance, the criteria for women to be diagnosed has been expanded recently, so now more women CAN be diagnosed as the previous criteria were male behavior centric, and research has shown separate patterns. So that is one way diagnoses would go up without environmental factors.

I guess I would hope to urge people to spend more time accepting and understanding the differences rather than try to find a root cause and terminate that root cause. I quite like my ADHD brain. I don’t think I was poisoned to become like this. I quite dislike common culture, and see it as a far larger problem than my symptoms.


RunRockBeanShred t1_j897hdw wrote

I am very skeptical of anything that has to do with the microbiome since tech companies are going hard into research and trying to find anything that will get venture capital money. I just don’t trust that they aren’t cherry picking or messing with statistics and studies so they can find some of that sweet VC cash.


cherrybounce OP t1_j89l3mm wrote

Why don’t you watch it? You may come away feeling differently.


DNA2020 t1_j86n313 wrote

Also ultra-processed and sterile foods…


CambrioCambria t1_j888omj wrote

And lack of diversity. We have the same 20 vegetables in the supermarket whole year long with a few seasonal ones. And those are always the exact same genomes aswell.


Haiku_Time_Again t1_j88oxeh wrote

Then why weren't ancient people affected by these issues?

Our diets are far more varied than they were years ago, you could only grow a few crops in a locale, and protein sources were not nearly as varied.

Twenty vegetables?

Ancient Etowah indians had two.


CambrioCambria t1_j8a7ie9 wrote

The modern man has pretty much always been suffering of non varied food and tooth decay?

Prior to being sedentary we ate hundreds of types of vegetables.


FreeQ t1_j88ugi9 wrote

Our vegetables have been bred for sweetness and shelf life. Their nutritional content is dropping all the time.


Haiku_Time_Again t1_j88y7m5 wrote

This has what to do with the variety I was commenting on?


solarsuitedbastard t1_j89eii5 wrote

I think the point is that broadly speaking the nutritional value of say corn or wheat or whatever vegetable you choose is diminishing over time as we selectively breed or modify the genetic makeup to fulfill our greatest desire… yield for profit


Haiku_Time_Again t1_j89fjzd wrote

Ok, but this has nothing to do with the variety argument at all.


solarsuitedbastard t1_j89jsi2 wrote

Sorry but what is the point you’re trying to make by the increased variety then, if not the more diverse nutritional component?


Haiku_Time_Again t1_j89mcbj wrote

Are you serious?

Poster says we have far less diversity and choice in our diets, and we can only find twenty vegetables at the store to buy.

I said that is far, far more variety than ancient people had.

Why is this difficult for you?


solarsuitedbastard t1_j8ad5w8 wrote

I am serious. Variety is but a slice of the nutritional pie. Eating wheat 2000 years ago was vastly different in nutritional value than the wheat we consume today.

I agree with you that there is more variety. The issue I’m trying to point out is even if you are comparing “apples to apples” an ancient apple had a different nutritional value than a modern apple.

My apologies if my difficulty understanding your narrow point caused you strife today. Take care


CambrioCambria t1_j8a7xw6 wrote

All vegetables and fruit went from hundred or tens of species to a few dozen to a fistfull.


youwantitwhen t1_j86pbg7 wrote

Pollution. It's all going to tie back to it.

Micro plastics... Forever chemicals... Etc


Nice_nice50 t1_j87w61b wrote

For cancers yes. For autism, nonsense.


youwantitwhen t1_j87whj0 wrote


Masque-Obscura-Photo t1_j88440f wrote

>Fuck off.

Extremely good argumentative skill you're showing here. I'm impressed.


MaximilianKohler t1_j8adpqi wrote

It can be pretty annoying and harmful for people to confidently spread misinformation.

Possibly we need even more of "debunking with a citation and insult" so people will stop overconfidently spreading misinformation.


Zakluor t1_j88bv1t wrote

Maybe you have a point, but that's not how you get people to listen to you.


frenchezz t1_j88duuc wrote

The one time someone provides evidence to back up a claim and they’re a fucking asshole about it.


bijhan t1_j86d9j7 wrote

Autism has always been here and always will, the idea that autism is a disease is itself a disease.


PurpleAntifreeze t1_j872pyy wrote

Lots of things are genetic and still considered diseases. Your point is vacuous and stupid.


deja_vuvuzela t1_j8770u8 wrote

I think the commenter is trying to make two points here: autism is a genetic/developmental thing. The idea that it is acquired by some GI aberration, or maybe vaccines, is a solidly refuted hypothesis. A lot of harm has been done by snake oil salesmen selling enemas, chelation therapy, etc to desperate parents of individuals with autism. Secondly, they are asserting that ASD is only called a disease because parts of the neurodivergent spectrum of humanity have been pathologized by our society. Compare it to homosexuality: also once called a disease and also likely tied to genetic and/or developmental processes, but no longer stigmatized by that medical designation.


rustyphish t1_j87qmir wrote

> Compare it to homosexuality

I mean, that would be ridiculous lol

For some reason, whenever these discussions pop up people only ever address highly functioning autistic people. Autism at its most severe can leave humans completely incapable of taking care of themselves without a full-time guardian. Level 3 autism often presents as completely nonverbal, and with little/no control over motor function.


Swinden2112 t1_j87bcqs wrote

You did it, you got em. They are never going to post on the internet again. You are a real hero. Thank you.


MrAcurite t1_j876ld0 wrote

Your mom is vacuous and stupid. Autism isn't a disease, it's just that normal people are dicks and can't handle our appreciation for subject matter expertise, our ability to actually listen to the words people say, or our enormous dicks. For evidence regarding that last one, well, as your vacuous and stupid mom.


[deleted] t1_j877f6x wrote



MC_Pterodactyl t1_j87ex92 wrote

I have a longer response, but autism is medically not a disease. At all. It is a disorder. Which as an ADHD adult, a sister diagnosis of neurodivergence, I still think disorder is a shit term for it.

I don’t feel disordered. I feel passionate, clear and empathetic. I have all the typical qualifiers of a stable and successful life, and then my hyper fixations and highly specific hobbies I have invested into deeply.

Neurotypical people often come off as disordered, with some really bizarre priorities that seem to really hurt them badly on a daily basis. Which is one qualification of having a disorder. It’s an unfair moniker in many ways, as most of the tension between neurotypicals and neurodiverse individuals is in each group missing the cues and information given by the other, yet one group gets to assert dominance over the other with labels.

Again, however, not a disease. Disorder is even in the name, it’s what the D is ASD stands for.


hlessi_newt t1_j87celk wrote

can you even read? start again from the top and go slowly. its only couple of sentences.


JackRusselTerrorist t1_j88o8s3 wrote

Yes, we should definitely celebrate a condition leaves people incapable of speaking, that causes suffering when the individual is exposed to things like, checks notes sights and sounds.



WayyyCleverer t1_j86n1b4 wrote

Can you elaborate?


Thebluefairie t1_j86tsr3 wrote

It's genetic


NintendogsWithGuns t1_j86w77b wrote

Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Both ASD and ADHD are considered genetic


Thebluefairie t1_j86wecx wrote

Some people just don't read and think that it's vaccines. Or toxic metals. Or pollution.


Xanderamn t1_j86x15l wrote

They also prefer to think its something external that they can blame things for.


Thebluefairie t1_j86zq2o wrote

Exactly because if it's genetic then they have to look at themselves if their parents


phantompenis2 t1_j88pg8k wrote

i mean not really. it isn't something like addiction or anger that you can reflect on and change over time


Thebluefairie t1_j88rne5 wrote

No it's more like it's passed on from parents to kids like genetically like blue eyes. Or it can be a grandparent it's never really that far away from the kids.


phantompenis2 t1_j88rrur wrote

no what im saying is you said they would have to reflect upon themselves if their kids is born with autism like it's something they did wrong


Thebluefairie t1_j88u6j3 wrote

Yes some people blame themselves for like the treatment of their child or something they did or didn't do but proper education ends that


ElectronFactory t1_j8ajlcx wrote

Technically, something external could affect the DNA of children, but it wouldn't typically result in a foundational change in their neural cognition—rather it would manifest in it's offspring.


MaximilianKohler t1_j8ael6x wrote

> Not sure why you’re being downvoted

Probably because it's yet another person overconfidently spreading misinformation. There's a wiki link in my profile with info. See the "intro" page.


hlessi_newt t1_j87bvnt wrote

and? what the hell is the point your trying to make? gout is genetic, its still a disease.

edit, i am corrected. comment remains so that others may learn from my foolishness.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j87e0fd wrote

Autism is classified as a disorder, not as a disease or illness.

Diseases and disorders are not classified under the same criteria.

Gout is a disease despite having genetic links because it is a pathophysiological response the body undergoes in response to certain conditions.

Autism is a disorder as it is a base change to the fundamental behavior sets seen as baseline.

Calling autism a disease has negative connotations in multiple ways. For one, diseases are interpreted negatively by many. Secondly, they are often treatable such that symptoms can be managed to almost nothing or simply fully curable.

Autism is a state of being and something that will never go away. It can be partially managed, but it is a change at the basic level of how the mind processes. It is not something to shame, fear or hate, it is just a difference.

Calling it a disease carries potentially harmful subtext to a group of people that are already highly vulnerable and often victimized by multiple facets of society. Being precise and kind with language can make a small difference, and is worth the effort.

We should all strive for acceptance and understanding.


hlessi_newt t1_j87f60e wrote

i stand corrected and i am shamed for my lack of understanding.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j87g65s wrote

You have the understanding now, the wisdom to be able to accept your mistake and the kindness to want to be part of the solution.

Those are lots of things to be proud of. If I’m going to be out here preaching acceptance, it’s got to acceptance of everyone. So that means mistakes can’t take away the inherent value you have as a person. You matter too in this massive, complex and ongoing conversation on a culture wide scale.

Thank you for being so open to feedback.


Five_Star_Amenities t1_j87k2ph wrote

Newt! Don't be so hard on yourself. We're all in a continual learning curve. Or at least those of us who keep striving to learn. Standing corrected is good enough, no need for shame.


Thebluefairie t1_j88kjxr wrote

You're fine! You don't know what you don't know. Whenever this comes up in conversation you can now help by letting someone else know.


insaneintheblain t1_j87r11q wrote

Calling it a disorder though implies that there is an 'order' - a norm against the traits are found to not suit. We can be understanding, but the system of diagnosis is responsible for furthering the idea that people with autism are 'abnormal', 'infirm' and should be treated differently.

We are all mad here - it's just that some traits of madness are more prized in an economic system.


Thebluefairie t1_j88kv5t wrote

Well when you're saying treated differently there's two different ways to be treated differently. Number one is to be looked down on. Thought of being less than someone else. Then there is treating someone differently as in giving them what they need to be able to perform what they need to do successfully. So no we don't need to be treated differently and look down upon. However we do need to be treated differently because our needs are different. And all autistic people are unique on what those specific needs are going to be able to be successful.

And saying we're all mad here is just like saying we're all a little bit autistic which we're not. And no we're not more diagnosed to make money off of us. A lot of us have a problem getting money so it's not like we can spend it


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8912yv wrote

I would personally prefer different terminology than disorder myself. I do believe disorder makes it seem abnormal or aberrant. From all appearances, all forms of neurodivergence are just the expression of traits that change needs, the priorities of needs and the manner in which needs are satisfied coupled with a differing processing and perception.

I’m only out here advocating against using the term disease because that is the most harmful term. Once understanding and acceptance has increased enough, I’d still hope we can then overturn disorder. Perhaps syndrome would be fine?

Anyways, I do want some medical signifiers to the diagnosis, because neurodiverse individuals have broad needs that rarely get met by the system. So I still want it accepted as a medically protected state of being. Because it isn’t as simple as just treating us as the same as everyone. My needs are super different, and my priorities and goals are too.

It will be a long road, but egalitarian treatment will end up relying on acceptance, inclusion and having actual, real space in society for neurodiverse individuals designed around their needs rather than neurotypical needs. Among hundreds or thousands of other factors.

For now, just getting to the point where we all don’t have to mask so damn much and so strongly would be a good start.


Canadianingermany t1_j88gs30 wrote

And disorder doesn't carry similar negative connotations?


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j88wvrk wrote

It does. But disease implies a concerted effort to eradicate it or cure it. If my leg is diseased you either treat the cause of the disease or remove the leg before it causes damage to the rest of my body.

If someone has mad cow disease I need to be careful and possibly stay away from them.

A disorder absolutely is still a negative connotation. I have ADHD and I don’t feel disordered in my behavior at all. I do everything I need to do to be successful in society. People can tell I’m different and a little quirky, but I generally have far more positive interactions than negative ones.

I’d say from my view neurotypicals often engage in behavior patterns that are disordered in their goals at least as often as I am, and seem to seek out self destructive behavior patterns I would never engage in. But they are the dominant group, so I’m the one disordered.

I would definitely like a different term. I do not have any medical treatment for my ADHD and instead use diet, sleep, exercise and meditation to manage myself. So yes, I would prefer a new term besides disorder too, maybe syndrome.

My point is only that disease causes active harm in its use, it is a very bluntly negative, a 1/10 on the positivity scale. Disorder is a 4/10, it is negative, but does a softer, more implicit harm of separating groups of humans with one having the advantage and the other the disadvantage. It isn’t good, but I don’t wince hearing it.


Canadianingermany t1_j88zuy8 wrote

All of this is your subjective connotations.

For example, there are many types of disease and not all of them are communicable (eg. kidney disease).

ADHD - diet, sleep and excercise are considered a treatment or at least beneficial for some diseases (eg. Diabetes). So this is also a poor argument.

Disease diagnosis is not about "separating groups of humans with one having the advantage". It is about understanding what kind of support they need.

I don't see where the word "disease" causes any more harm than "disorder".

Assholes are going to asshole, regardless if the medical term used.


phantompenis2 t1_j88plo5 wrote

do you think people should stop saying alcoholism/addiction is a disease? you see that a lot


Canadianingermany t1_j88gmsg wrote

There are genetic diseases.


Thebluefairie t1_j88kyon wrote

Autism is not classified as a disease.


Canadianingermany t1_j88t7hv wrote

But that wasn't the point. The argument was autism is not a disease because it is genetic.


This is an incorrect argument, regardless of whether autism is classified as a disease or not, the cause is not relevant.


Thebluefairie t1_j88tuve wrote

It's not classified as a disease it's classified as a disorder and if you'd like to see a really good explanation look elsewhere in this thread


Canadianingermany t1_j890a8h wrote

Like I said, I wasn't arguing whether disease or disorder is correct, but rather saying that a genetic cause is absolutely not the defining factor between disease and disorder.

But it seems you refuse to read what I actually wrote and prefer to argue something else entirely.


Equivalent_Number546 t1_j87lyrg wrote

Others have already, but for my thoughts (since you asked)

First off: I have diagnosed and take meds for narcolepsy, PTSD, and ADHD (same meds conveniently as narcolepsy).

People treat neurodivergence as if it’s a disease. Or even a disorder. Even the term neurodivergent is, in itself, bad and stupid and dumb. Why?

Because it implies there’s this magical normal area. There isn’t. And if there is, who defines it? Why is it normal?

To spare myself typing and you reading: capitalism.

Jobs “require” (they don’t have to but choose to increase suffering massively with tiny profit increase) everyone be within that normal range. Sleep the same, pay attention the same, learn the same, speak the same, etc.

Narcoleptic (me) and need to take random uncontrollable naps sometimes during work hours? Too bad. Can’t do the job. Enjoy unemployment you lazy bum. Go die now.

Severe autism and can’t interact with others in the exact way corporate structure wants? No promotion for you. You’re annoying! Go die now.

It’s all a bullshit made up hierarchy. Yes these conditions exist (I have 3 myself!)!and yes they present different difficulties and obstacles. But to call all of them diseases? To lump autism in with cancer? That’s gross. And it’s never really talked about the fact it happens nor why it happens… which is just greed. The uncaring system has no room for your individual “problems.” You can go die and the system will find a new you that will fit the mold.

Obviously none of this suffering is necessary. We’re all sold this lie of normalcy and within the lie the central lie that capitalism is good, forever growth is good, commodity consumption is good, etc.

Imagine a world… like the world before capitalism… where we didn’t do all this insanity. Just requires an acknowledgment that the systems are dogshit and harming society and people. It requires an acceptance of removing power from individual fascist pieces of shit that stole or inherited businesses and such. No one should hold such power undemocratically. Imagine…


rustyphish t1_j87qffp wrote

> Severe autism and can’t interact with others in the exact way corporate structure wants? No promotion for you. You’re annoying! Go die now.

I agree with you in general, but this is a wild misframing of what "severe" autism is. On the most severe end of the spectrum, you have completely nonverbal wards of the state who don't have basic motor function. It can be crippling.


provocative_bear t1_j877sfs wrote

You take care of your billions of little butt buddies and they will take care of you.

You do them wrong, they will wreck you from the inside out.


TeakForest t1_j882p2o wrote

Also, autism works on a scale so when people say it is ONLY genetic they aren't correct. Environmental causes can and will make cases worse and more common. Genes are one part but the health of the mother, introduction to vital microbes at an early age and environmental causes like pollution and poor diet increase the severity anf chances of autism. Emeran Mayer is my source and he is the executive Director of the Oppenheimer Family Center for Neurobiology of Stress, and Co-director of the CURE: Digestive Diseases Research Center at UCLA.


TeakForest t1_j882clq wrote

Read Emeran Mayer's works. His work and others in the same field are revolutionizing the way we think about the microbiome and how interconnected it is to our health and us as a species.


Iwanderandiamlost t1_j882yu1 wrote

I think eating a shitton of processed foods is linked to rise in obesity, but who am i to say that


-Celtic-Warrior- t1_j88mif4 wrote

undoubtedly, but shovelling three times as much food down their gullet and doing a third of the exercise, compared to the society of the post WW2 decade when Western society ws said to be at its healthiest, dietarily speaking, is also a huge contributor.

We have become a lazier society than our grandparents time.


Flushles t1_j88qpuq wrote

I agree with this in general but I think lazy is the wrong descriptor.

I usually point at cities and the effects cars have had on shaping them, if there's nice convenient places to walk or ride a bicycle people will choose to do that (generally) but most US cities are terrible places to walk and worse places to ride a bicycle, everthing is too far to walk and even if there's a nice sidewalk there's no trees because of required "clear zones" on roads.


-Celtic-Warrior- t1_j89v79v wrote

I have never been to America, but I hear the space you have there is vast.

in Britain, we have 1/6th of the American population, crammed into 1/56th of your land mass, so we still have almost all of our population within a 4 hour drive of one another. in the UK, I'd definitely say it was different to the states, purely because our cities are so much more compact that we can get mostly everything we need within walking distance of our homes, but people just refuse to walk a couple of miles if they can drive there instead, and when it gets to the stage where they're driving to the fish and chip shop at the bottom of the road, it's hard to avoid concluding laziness is endemic here. the UK also have the fattest population in Europe, which Is odd because we are some of the most densely populated cities in Europe.


89LeBaron t1_j88ey5n wrote

Someone who can only go on the specific data point that people were skinnier as a whole before processed foods came along.


midnight_station t1_j88jnoy wrote

Considering there are multitudes of studies, doctors, and scientists concerned about the obesity epidemic; its safe to say people were skinnier before processed foods.


Canadianingermany t1_j88gixi wrote

Maybe, and hear me out, people are doing:

Less physical activity


Eating more calories

Is the main cause of obesity.

I mean, I lost 30 kgs/60 lbs of pandemic weight by adding a 38 minute daily walk and not eating 3 desserts.


natori_umi t1_j88u6en wrote

The thing is that you can and probably should also ask why people are eating more calories.


Canadianingermany t1_j8900v1 wrote

The most common reason is because they are available. In particular, rich countries suffer from obesity.


-Celtic-Warrior- t1_j88mcpw wrote

Holy shit, there we have it folks! common sense in its rawest form!

If you consume more calories than you burn off, for an extended period of time, you get fat. the good news is, if you burn off more calories than you consume, you reverse the process and get thin.

it really is this simple.


ThymeCypher t1_j8admfr wrote

I can only speak from personal experience but growing up partially in a hospital, my doctors took an approach that today might seem irrational and might even result in malpractice. They told my parents to let me play in dirt, drink muddy water even, take part in activities that might cause an asthma attack, don’t fret over Cloroxing every surface. I haven’t had a severe asthma attack in 12ish years and no longer take steroids for allergy control. I’ve never met a person with asthma as severe as mine but I’ve met plenty who still have to keep an inhaler on hand.


Shawn_NYC t1_j89uuit wrote

Here's a cheat code for bullshit - just match up two mysteries and imply/state they are related


  • gut biome is a mystery & autism is a mystery therefore autism is caused by the gut biome!
  • microplastics are a mystery & gut biome is a mystery therefore microplastics but impact gut biome
  • quantum particles are a mystery & consciousness is a mystery therefore consciousness must be a quantum effect
  • quantum particles are a mystery and autism is a mystery therefore autism is caused by quantum entanglement

turnstwice t1_j88n89u wrote

I’m pretty sure obesity is caused by eating too much.


rmdashrfdot t1_j88vpoq wrote

For sure. But why are people eating so much more than they used to? I haven't watched this video, but it does make sense that could be linked to gut health.


turnstwice t1_j89qv3h wrote

Because the high caloric food that humans naturally crave is now cheap and readily available.


JustDepravedThings t1_j87yewx wrote

Put down the antibacterial soap. Unless you're on death's door, you don't need it. Build up your immune system, go play in the dirt. Or stay weak and feeble. The choice is yours.


smashkraft t1_j880u6e wrote

Your gut microbiome has a lot more to do with ingested antibiotics and diet (acidic soda, inflammatory grains, etc.) than topical antibiotics and rolling in dirt. The gut microbiome almost certainly impacts the immune system, but the greatest benefits are to your overall nutrition more so than immune function. The microbiome presents the ideal conditions for digestion (that’s why we keep them there)