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MC_Pterodactyl t1_j87gxdb wrote

I haven’t listened to this documentary, but as someone who works in the field of autism education, no definitive cause has been found. Period. End of sentence.

Be extremely suspicious of ANYONE claiming they can source autism’s cause. There is a known link to gut health with many people with ASD, but there is no understanding or consensus yet on how they interact, where the comorbidity arises from or how exactly they are related. Certainly it is not yet known that one causes the other.

People trying to source the cause of autism have done a GREAT deal of harm to that community, including the crooked Andrew Wakefield who lost his license in his vicious attempt to build panic against a 3 in 1 vaccine to sell his own. He used autism as a scapegoat to pad his pockets.

Without watching the documentary I can’t say more than either this comment title is misleading or the documentary itself contains actual misinformation. So just be wary.


CAESTULA t1_j87w9i7 wrote

I'm autistic. I posit that there aren't more autistic people now than before, we've merely gotten better at noticing autism. Seriously, you cannot convince me people like Sir Issac Newton staring at prisms all day, and the people who drew snails fighting rabbits in illuminated manuscripts for weeks at a time, et al, weren't neurodivergent.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j88vb2z wrote

I 100% agree with you. Gregor Mendel studying beans and putting them into charts to track their qualities that closely? Sounds like a hyperfixation to me.

Alan Turing being able to work incredibly long hours on the wildly complex math behind the Turing machine cracking the enigma code?

I believe it has been a consistent genetic trait expressed throughout all human history. Much like my own diagnosis of ADHD. It’s just no one knew that it was a real difference in processing the world and just used designations like “odd” or “quirky”.


CPTDisgruntled t1_j89q5nm wrote

Or “lazy” or “ill-disciplined” ☹️


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8a5thw wrote

Oh, I hate that. So much. I personally feel repulsed by power, hierarchies and the power structures they rely on, but the typical track is to find hierarchies and rise on them. Chase money, get a big house, all that.

The fact that the priorities I have and way I spend my free time is often judged as lazy or farting around aimlessly when the traditional culture is to sit down and watch a 4 to 6 hour televised sporting event. I spend that time painting or constructing ludo narrative embracing rules systems for table top RPGs or designing adventures for them. I have a thing afterwards that is mine and will always be.

And when I play a great video game for hours, I am challenging myself and often enjoying a profound story. People just don’t “get it” so I must be wrong and lazy. Hate it, hate it, hate it.


anotherjustlurking t1_j8ajfxm wrote

Dude. Perhaps you’re different but know that your being different is a great thing for all of us. Your differences mean we’re more likely to survive as a species and prosper. But it’s a heavy burden to bear…thanks for being who you are - I’m glad you’re here.


dbx999 t1_j8cqqz0 wrote

At what point are we able to differentiate lazy people from neurodivergent or does neurodivergence explain all behaviors outside of normal?


Luke_Orlando t1_j88207l wrote

Honestly If you wouldn't draw a rabbit knight on a snail horse stabbing a distraught looking monk in the butt with a spear then I don't need to know you.


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CAESTULA t1_j88fsao wrote

Not talking about doodles. Are you not familiar with margin drawings in illuminated manuscripts? Scholars have spent years just trying to figure out what they mean.


[deleted] t1_j88gjan wrote



phantompenis2 t1_j88okx5 wrote

yeah i used to draw spirals a lot, makes sense to give it a little head and tail and boom you've got yourself a 2d pet


theyellowpants t1_j898nix wrote

Based on the damage snails can do to my garden I’d enlist the help of knights to save my plants


SteveBored t1_j87m3kw wrote

Autism is also just diagnosed way more often these days.


Tigen13 t1_j88u91d wrote

You didnt need a tone of brains to hunt and farm. Especially working as a group. That is most if human history. Diagnosing autism would have served no purpose in 99% of human history.


thegodfather0504 t1_j89rmnt wrote

So why is it such a big deal now? Why can't people collectively just accept weirdness as a character trait or something and move on? you know, like the old times.

Perhaps it's the rising standards along with education. Being literate isn't enough anymore?


vilebubbles t1_j8ac9ky wrote

A lot of autistic people cannot speak, need aac or other help communicating, need help with nutrition as they will not eat, have self injurious behaviors. Everyone only seems to think about the “good kind of autism” in these comments.


Tigen13 t1_j8ehid2 wrote

Education requirements and specialization of trade. It just makes life more complicated and therefore much more difficult for those with severe limitations.


thegodfather0504 t1_j8feaf9 wrote

But autistics can excel in both of those! It's the social behaviour requirements. All of a sudden, "charisma" is being preferred over everything.


Tigen13 t1_j8fooct wrote

Can excel but usually don't. Additionally, being extremely poor in one important area can cancel out benefits on other gifted areas.

Then add in the financial means and nurture of the parents. It's an uphill battle.


Deadfishfarm t1_j89xehu wrote

Wrong. Relationships were more important for survival back then. A person that can't form close relationships among the group is a liability


MehtefaS t1_j8a1ywy wrote

Lol as if people with autism can't form close relationships


Tigen13 t1_j8eh9pq wrote

Apparently not...... I am interested to learn more about what they did with autistic people since apparently nobody cared about them.


MehtefaS t1_j8a1um1 wrote

Back in the day your whole future was pretty planned ahead for you, by your family. There was a ton of routine and the social hierarchy was a lot easier to read, ie, the Royalty was on top and the handicapped peasants at the bottom. Even in our parents and grandparents time, a lot was set in stone for your future. Farmer's son? Raised to take over the farm. It was a lot easier to blend in, and even if you stood out, you would just be the odd weirdo that wouldn't hurt a fly


schietzs t1_j88eq6t wrote

The causation could just as likely be backwards. Autism may be linked with a preference for processed foods that are simple and predictable leading to decline in gut micro biome.


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schietzs t1_j89ezdk wrote

I feel like I need more background. It's an interesting new field. I don't really understand the internal microbiome and what factors affect it. Does the gut microbiome change the internal one?


cherrybounce OP t1_j89g8tt wrote

I am not trying to be opaque. I just don’t want to mischaracterize anything and I hope people who are interested, actually watch the documentary. I use the word “internal” because the theory is that the rise in C-sections are causing infants to not have the interaction with the Microbiome from the birth canal, and it could affect them in unseen ways.


cherrybounce OP t1_j88uzyz wrote

Neither the title nor the documentary is “misinformation.” The scientists theorize that the rise of allergies, obesity and autism “may” be linked to the loss of our microbiome and I clearly used the word “may”. They certainly don’t state it as a fact, nor did I in the title. They are researchers with Rutgers University, not Andrew Wakefield type quacks, and have studied this for decades and are respected in their fields and the doc is about their research and double blind studies. I am not sure how a hypothesis a scientist is testing is “misinformation.” And in the case of autism, it’s not the loss of our “gut” microbiome they believe to be the cause. How do you confidently state something is misinformation and you haven’t seen it? Just give it a watch.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j88zna4 wrote

Autism “may” also be caused by overstimulation of the amygdala during infancy, causing that part of the brain to be oversized and develop faster than others.

Wakefield, who harmed the autistic community so badly and continues to harm them to this day with his misinformation, also used the word “may”. He, too, thought swelling in the gut “may” lead to autism.

The problem with the whole insinuation is the notion or idea that autism could have been prevented “if only we had…”. This leads to parents mourning their choices, treating the child differently and focusing on trying to cure them. Whether or not that is the documentaries intent, I’ve worked in the world of children with autism long enough to see the difference between parents who think their child’s behavior is somehow curable versus those with broad acceptance that this is just who their child was always going to be.

I believe you there IS a link between a neurodivergence in all forms and delicate gut health. Most people I know with neurodivergent traits have gut health issues, I have IBS myself, my partner does too. I’m ADHD, they are autistic. My issue is your title parses as “internal microbiome may be linked to the rise in…autism.”

I find this misleading because we have to determine first that autism actually IS on the rise, or if diagnostic ability has risen to the level to catch and diagnose cases effectively. Secondly, the sentence insinuates that internal microbiome is raising the number of autistic cases.

Because of this, and because most people are NOT experts in ASD and there is so much misinformation about it, I wanted to disclaim for those going in how this documentary may be trying to sell a point as very likely when the agreement in the field is that it is highly irresponsible to claim we are anywhere close to an understanding on the cause.

The documentary could be fine, but I wish you had made a separate sentence that stated “It also touches on the feedback links between ASD and gut health.” Then I wouldn’t have felt the need to warn people to have their guard up going in.


cherrybounce OP t1_j89111j wrote

It’s actually not the gut microbiome they believe is related to autism. I am not a scientist and I didn’t want to characterize their research by putting it into my own words.

Your idea that “if only we had” leads to people mourning their choices is odd to me. If scientists actually do discover a preventable cause for any disease or disorder, isn’t that a good thing so we can then change our behavior?

I am not pushing anything and I know even mentioning the word autism is tricky. I just thought the documentary was well done and presented legitimate research by well respected scientists. You seem to have an interest in this. I would like to know your opinion after you watch this.

Here is the bio of one of the scientists:

Martin J. Blaser holds the Henry Rutgers Chair of the Human Microbiome at Rutgers University, and serves as Director of the Center for Advanced Biotechnology and Medicine. Previously, he served as Chair of the Department of Medicine at New York University. A physician and microbiologist, Dr. Blaser has been studying the relationships we have with the human microbiome, the bacteria that live in us. Over the last 20 years, he has also been actively studying the relationship of the human microbiome with both health and important diseases including asthma, obesity, diabetes, and cancer. Dr. Blaser has been the advisor to many students, post-doctoral fellows, and faculty. He has served as President of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, Chair of the Board of Scientific Counselors of the National Cancer Institute, and Chair of the Advisory Board for Clinical Research of the NIH. He currently serves as Chair of the Presidential Advisory Council for Combatting Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria (PACCARB). He was elected to the National Academy of Medicine and the American Academy for Arts and Sciences. He has authored over 600 original scientific articles, holds 24 U.S. patents, and he also wrote Missing Microbes, a book targeted to general audiences, now translated into 20 languages.


drewbles82 t1_j88h5xw wrote

Its similar with Crohns and Colitis...they haven't found what causes it yet but I would bet money on it, that its the Western diet (as its rare elsewhere) Stress and this. A combination of all 3, very closely linked. I have colitis but have avoided stress and changed my diet and see a massive change...I'm also autistic


Thebluefairie t1_j88k27q wrote

It is not rare elsewhere. Autism is blind to culture. There are also cultures that are blind to autism. You should see what they do to autistics in China


theyellowpants t1_j898x2x wrote

I think they were saying crohns and colitis are rare elsewhere


atiaa11 t1_j89bhmi wrote

Thanks for sharing your experience. The title of the post says “…may be linked…” not “…is linked...” And since you haven’t watched it yet, you may learn something!


Deadfishfarm t1_j89wivp wrote

No, you're being way over the top. The title says it MAY be linked to those things. It's not even remotely a definitive, misleading claim


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8a4ygh wrote

sigh The way you’re handling this isn’t giving me a lot of faith in it.

I had hoped there could be a dialogue about how complex the issue is but I guess not. This doesn’t feel like the way we grow or seek the truth.


Deadfishfarm t1_j8ahez9 wrote

There can be a dialogue about it. That's the point of saying it "may be linked". As in there's suspicion or reason to believe there could be a possible link, and we should look into it more to see if there really is a link. That's how science works. We think up a hypothesis, find evidence, and conclude the experiment.


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8awbou wrote

I get you. I think the problem is this has been abused very, very badly in the past. See Wakefield and his vaccines study, also convinced there may be a link between autism and bowel disorders. He abused the entire system, and chose autism as the lynchpin because many parents responded powerfully to the idea it had all happened for a reason and might have a solution.

This Dr. Brasler doesn’t sound bad, his fecal transplants sound promising in many ways to many groups. Plus it’s replicable, which is a huge boon to it being something that can prove useful.

But the problem I have is the insinuation that the rise in autism diagnoses is linked to something. The last time we went there it did decades of harm to the autistic community. It still isn’t solved today.

The public is very bad at interpreting scientific studies, and hear “a study concluded” as “truth verified”. It takes a very long time to build consensus, and therefore extremely measured use of language can be extremely helpful on the public facing side to stem conclusions by the public and then harming a whole community.

The research is valid, and should continue, but Wakefield used and abused may horribly, and so autism should receive extra care in terms of how future studies portray it lest a bandwagon of harm spark again. It’s a more sensitive arena of study than others.

That’s all I’m saying.


MaximilianKohler t1_j8acuco wrote

There is nothing misleading about the title or the documentary. There have been numerous studies showing the gut microbiome to be causative. ASU did an FMT study and the patients improved significantly.

Your comment is far more misleading.


funnyfaceguy t1_j8iza1o wrote

The study you mention does not claim or supply evidence for a casual relation between gut health causing autism.

It provides evidence for a treatment that reduces autism symptoms. That does not have inherent implication on gut health causing Autism.

I can treat the flu with an antihistamine, that doesn't mean the presents of histamine causes the flu.


MaximilianKohler t1_j8k91hh wrote

That's not accurate at all. You may want to take some time looking through the wiki in my profile.


funnyfaceguy t1_j8kbtrc wrote

I took a look and the ones providing any evidence for causality are all studies done on mice that are highly speculative. Even the studies authors encourage caution about jumping to any conclusions.

In not trying to discredit the research, but it's far too early to make any definitely claims from so I think the original comments skepticism is warranted.

Although it's obvious from your profile that you're far from partisan on the matter.


farm_sauce t1_j899ugw wrote

I find microplastics and forever chemicals a much more compelling argument for a cause, but the truth is that its undoubtedly a combination of many factors


MC_Pterodactyl t1_j8a6lmc wrote

The counter argument is that they seem to have always been a part of human culture, long before chemicals were commonplace and plastics invented. But no one had the knowledge to identify what was happening.

I am against micro plastics and industrial chemical waste, but I don’t feel convinced they cause everything that is off the path termed “normal”.

For instance, the criteria for women to be diagnosed has been expanded recently, so now more women CAN be diagnosed as the previous criteria were male behavior centric, and research has shown separate patterns. So that is one way diagnoses would go up without environmental factors.

I guess I would hope to urge people to spend more time accepting and understanding the differences rather than try to find a root cause and terminate that root cause. I quite like my ADHD brain. I don’t think I was poisoned to become like this. I quite dislike common culture, and see it as a far larger problem than my symptoms.


RunRockBeanShred t1_j897hdw wrote

I am very skeptical of anything that has to do with the microbiome since tech companies are going hard into research and trying to find anything that will get venture capital money. I just don’t trust that they aren’t cherry picking or messing with statistics and studies so they can find some of that sweet VC cash.


cherrybounce OP t1_j89l3mm wrote

Why don’t you watch it? You may come away feeling differently.