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GoodbyeCOI t1_jbplu3j wrote

Maybe...we're more likely to stop reproducing if anything.

Imagine that being tied to UBI and social credit scores. There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can pretend that people will do creative things for the common good if they didn't have to work but chances are they'll just drink, smoke, and fuck all day.

Brazil has already tied their version of UBI to COVID vaccination compliance. I'm not making any kind of argument or trying to discuss vaccines but just showing the slippery slope of UBI.

It will be used to control and tied to social credit scores...but it'll likely be sold as freedom.

Only the rich who don't need UBI will get the privilege to live outside the rules.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbpm6pe wrote

100% bullshit. People will not just drink smoke and fuck all day. People want a purpose.


berlinparisexpress OP t1_jbpmvg4 wrote

Yeah, this was a weirdly pessimistic take.

Why would people do anything in their free time if that was true? Why do people volunteer to homeless shelters at night after a crushing work day?

Some people might want to drink and smoke all day, but I'm sure they're somehow already doing that. Harm reduction and prevention is the answer - not depriving society as a whole of positive social measures.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbpoerh wrote

It's not pessimistic it's realistic. It's going to come with strings attached to keep people in line. Economics has always had the free rider problem and you can't pretend it won't be an issue with UBI.

It's every technocrats wet dream because it can give an incentive for societal compliance.

Unless you're wealthy enough not to need it that is...


berlinparisexpress OP t1_jbpopwo wrote

> It's going to come with strings attached to keep people in line.

Unlike the current situation..? I mean, people have to be "in line" with their company to keep a roof over their head.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbpp2sh wrote

Not if you're an entrepreneur or into modern homestead living.

Knowing people could buy and use drugs with it would you be in favor of mandatory monthly drug testing for illegal substances?

Not talking pot or alcohol where that's legal...hard drugs. This debate already exists with welfare.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbptqm8 wrote

No, its stupid and projecting. Just because youre lazy doesnt mean the rest of us are.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbpug25 wrote

It's called the free rider problem and it has always been a central concern in the study of economics and public goods.

It's not's a genuine problem in economics that economists have tried to address since forever.

This one too:

Any discussion of UBI has to confront these issues.

I wish I had UBI to relax. I haven't taken PTO since April 1st last year. Way to use adhomenim and contribute nothing of value to a very high level intellectual topic.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbq3llm wrote

Brother all these arguments are just made up from the same group of people. You keep falling for their same shit. I bet you believe their wealth will trickle down one day too! And just because you clocked in for almost a year doesnt mean youre not lazy.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbq5jv0 wrote

Acting like $700 a month will fix everything in our economic model is foolish.

What good is UBI when people can still go bankrupt when they get sick?

Universal healthcare is a better deal.

Pretending that UBI will unleash some form of utopian society is far too optimistic given the level of economic inequality we are seeing.

You haven't explained why I'm wrong...and in fact you look foolish calling me lazy.

Here's why:

Say I am lazy...what measures will be put in place for people like me who will use UBI to smoke and fuck all day?

People already sell EBT for drug money in an underground economy. Do you think the government (which has already locked us down and tried to force vaccine mandates) will just give me free money without some form of control or regulatory framework to prevent abuse?

Look at the abuse and fraud in the PPP think they're gonna repeat those same mistakes without some form of control like blockchain or a CBDC system that tracks every transaction with the capability to audit and inspect on the level of an electron microscope?

All I'm saying is that UBI will come with strings attached and serious controls to prevent abuse and the free rider problem.

To expect the government to give people free money with no strings attached is asinine...


Iffykindofguy t1_jbq6i78 wrote

Im not reading all that since you started out with nonsense. Stop lying, stop going to extremes to try to make a point, then come back.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbq6x0x wrote

It's not nonsense. If people sell EBT for drug money outside the system you should expect the government to enforce controls on who gets UBI and how they can use it.

Social credit scores, no outstanding taxes, no warrants...etc.

If you think the government is just gonna give free shit with no strings attached you're fooling yourself.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbqn0kl wrote

Again, where did I say any of that? Just running with so many assumptions


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbpndus wrote

Not everyone...but you're partially right. If you're interested in what motivates people this is good:

It lists purpose but within a capitalist and performance based model.

If people don't have to work they can openly pursue pleasure. It's nice when that means art or sport or something cool but sadly pleasure is purpose for many.

Look at the drug addled streets of Philadelphia or any ghetto.

My argument is that UBI will simply come with strings attached to keep people in line. To get it you'll need all your vaccines and maybe even birth control if you have a bad social credit score and would in turn most likely make a terrible parent.

It's sad but can anyone tell me it ain't true?



Iffykindofguy t1_jbpu0ju wrote

yeah man those drug addicts in the ghetto are doing it for pleasure llololol


bitch get out of here with your childish take on this. Horrible read. Antiscience, outdated info, and capitalist propaganda. Trifecta of stupidity.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbpvjzx wrote

I actually studied Marxism and this particular economist in depth:

I am very critical of capitalism. We probably share many similar views but can't relate and will never relate due to how emotional you respond.

I come from a family of drug addicts btw. They're all dead or in jail.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbq6eph wrote

I'm sure that was tough, you're going after the wrong enemy. Also where did I say anything about Marxism? So many assumptions.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbqhlb7 wrote

I'm not going after you or viewing you as the enemy... you just come off like you've got poor communication skills and an abrasive personality ranting about capitalism and calling me a bitch.

Instead of having a civil discussion you jumped straight to ad-homenim and SIGN:

Shame. Insults. Guilt. Need to be right.

I read your comment history telling people to go to therapy and here you are accusing me of projection because I brought up the real possibility of people abusing social welfare benefits like they already do...

Which is why universal healthcare is a better deal than UBI...because that same therapy you think others need would be free if you considered it yourself.

Don't worry...2030 is around the corner. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbqn5i0 wrote

Lol you sweet sweet summer child. Universal healthcare is not a trade off, universal healthcare should have been established decades ago. I dont tell people to go to therapy unless I mean it, you should stop stigmatizing therapy and using it as an insult.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbqom9w wrote

UBI is pointless if you can still go bankrupt getting sick or hurt in America. Without universal healthcare UBI becomes a socialized emergency savings account assuming people will be responsible with it and won't try and abuse or game the system hence need for controls instead of free shit no strings attached.

After all this time I still have no idea what your views or principles are on the matter...

No stigma of therapy. It helped my anger issues and prevented me from doing things like insulting strangers online to get my point across along with other behavior that results in violence if directed to the wrong person when you can't hide behind a keyboard.

If you get UBI consider martial arts...good investment. Maybe even better than therapy.

Therapy helped me become a responsible, employable adult.

I don't want to ask how old you are but if you're above the age of 25 take a very deep look at how you communicate and ask yourself if anyone would trust or want to be around you based off how you act online. You don't come off as the "golden rule" type but I could be wrong.

No's genuinely concerning that this is the attitude I see all the time with angry young men...disconnected from society who are vulnerable and at risk of radicalization from various movements that prey on them.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbqv8b6 wrote

Yeah, thats why I'm working towards universal healthcare now and hoping for a UBI type program in the future. You pretend you're not angry and insulting but you're just bottling it up and hiding it in passive-aggressive shots. Funnily enough you were right about one thing, we are similar in at least one way. I also wasnt really "employable" until I went to therapy. That has nothing to do with what we're talking about, neither does how I communicate. You're assuming everyone is here to do the same thing you are, youre incorrect.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbqylud wrote

That's where I learned SIGN...shame, insults, guilt, need to be right. Not insinuating and not my business but it's common with people raised by single moms or moms with psych disorders.

Feels bad saying that as if it's misogyny and dads can't be bad parents either but when men debate it's usually facts, logic, high IQ methods and formal debate tactics. Then when we get disciplined and corrected it's usually a formal process and explanation on how we fucked up instead of going straight to insults and ass whoopings like both moms and dads can do.

My therapist was real with me and said I picked up alot of bad habits from some of the women I was around when growing up who admittedly would always go straight to insults and SIGN. I picked it up and did the same until therapy called it out.

What helped me really communicate ironically was a shit job in a call center after therapy ended and I had to put it into practice along with telling people no and letting things go since people can be dicks over the phone as they are online.

I got passionate on the internet during covid but gotta catch myself from getting mad or being a dick.

I still make mistakes but if you're trying to get both UBI and socialized healthcare consider Europe assuming you're American.

I may still move there if I can find a way to get a certain type of visa...explains the problems they are running into trying to fund UBI so it's definitely something I think about and follow no matter the motivation which is ironically cannabis since I had a license and cannabis business for a while.

Malta was the first EU country to go federally legal. They just need human capital and $$$ if you read that article I wouldn't be surprised if cannabis is the sector they need to fund UBI along with changing regulations for financial firms who are exempt from paying their fair share.

So yeah...if I gotta work so others can smoke and fuck all day on UBI from my corporate taxes I guess I'd be cool with it.


Iffykindofguy t1_jbqzjje wrote

Given what you said about your past if you can get out you should get out, you worked hard and are helping to spread the shift from a society that lets its emotions destroy it to one that manages them. Especially if you plan on having kids. I dont ever want kids so my contribution to society ends with me. I have some unfortunate stuff in my past but the only reason Ive been able to get over them is because society bends over backwards for me because of a combination of where I was born, who I was born to and how I look. Would feel wrong to take that benefit and run since society treats me with such kid gloves anyways. I understand that sounds pretentious to the point of being pathetic but its just how I feel.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbr29kc wrote

No that's a real thing.

The only time I've heard the kid gloves comment is when people acknowledge their privilege be it white or male or rich or whatever identifier. have a disability and UBI will help you live a more comfortable life. I'm cool with that too. I just don't think people with disabilities are necessarily treated with kid gloves which is very different from legit and legal protected ADA accommodations. It's not kid gloves it's just decency and what society should do for those with legitimate disabilities.

Kid gloves is if you can take it or should learn how to take it if you haven't...some people are just straight up wheelchair bound and paralyzed so any form of kid glove treatment is usually reasonable and well intentioned even if it's something as small as asking for help at the grocery store.

I knew a guy who lost his arm in Iraq...dude whooped ass at pool volleyball. Found out he also is a purple belt jujitsu but I def saw the kid glove treatment you may be speaking of.


FeatheryBallOfFluff t1_jbpueas wrote

Given that musicians and billionaires still do meaningful work, even with all the money in the world, to me is proof that people won't just sit around and smoke all day.

For me personally, that would be hell. Like many people, I'm curious about the world and so helping build new machines, doing research on space, life or computers would still be interesting to me, and probably many others too.


GoodbyeCOI t1_jbpwbbt wrote

Good point. Those people have enough money not to worry about money though. UBI is a concern for the poorest of the poor and decimated middle class.

If the working clas didn't have to bang on a machine in a dangerous factory what would they do?

I obviously don't think everyone will pursue hedonism but I say that because I certainly would.

I'm tired of working hard in a system where hard work isn't always rewarded. Sadly, hard work is all I have to succeed so it's a catch 22.

If I got UBI I'd continue boxing, making cbd products, and perhaps continue to work my normal job where everyone is overworked and underpaid.

I bring up the issues I mention because people already sell their EBT for drugs so it's very likely that UBI will be very regulated and controlled to prevent abuse...think blockchain...citizen credit score...etc.

They'll definitely impose controls on recipients...


msubasic t1_jbqw0o3 wrote

Given how reactionary our society was about welfare recipients. I think you are right that there will be a trade-off for this money that will include a loss of some privacy. There would be a lot of potential for fraud without some good controls.