Submitted by idapitbwidiuatabip t3_y88rue in Futurology
AftyOfTheUK t1_isyv7qu wrote
Reply to comment by idapitbwidiuatabip in Ikea is trialing driverless truck deliveries in Texas. by idapitbwidiuatabip
>Poverty is an emergency
Poverty is not an emergency. It's always been around, it always will be around. What constitutes poverty changes over time.
Someone in poverty in the UK today has far more goods, diverse foods, communications, a better home, access to better services and better healthcare and better education than someone who was well above the poverty line a couple of generations ago.
>But the biggest argument for UBI is our current socioeconomic collapse.
I'm not sure who "our" is in your sentence, but "we" in the countries I've lived in (the UK and the US and France) seem to have some pretty insane quality of life for most people undergoing a socioeconomic collapse!
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_isyw610 wrote
> Poverty is not an emergency.
Of course it is. Homelessness is on the rise in America
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/15/briefing/homelessness-america-housing-crisis.html
> It's always been around, it always will be around.
We've been slashing poverty for 200 years. We can eliminate it altogether and suggesting otherwise is mindlessly defeatist.
> What constitutes poverty changes over time.
No, basic physiological & safety needs have remained the same.
> Someone in poverty in the UK today has far more goods, diverse foods, communications, a better home, access to better services and better healthcare and better education than someone who was well above the poverty line a couple of generations ago.
Not the case in America. I can't speak on the UK, but there's an awful lot of people there complaining about cost of living. So...can you explain that?
> I'm not sure who "our" is in your sentence, but "we" in the countries I've lived in (the UK and the US and France) seem to have some pretty insane quality of life for people undergoing a socioeconomic collapse!
If you think that the UK and France are comparable to the US, you're proving how little you know about these nations.
By countless measurable metrics, America is undergoing socioeconomic collapse.
Look at our labor force participation rate.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART
Look at our total capacity utilization
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TCU
Look at our life expectancy, our suicide rates, our homelessness rates, etc.
Ignoring the problems doesn't mean they aren't there.
divat10 t1_isyxm1y wrote
why can't we compate UK and france to the US?
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_isyy8n3 wrote
We can compare them.
But they are not comparable in the sense that all have more or less equal standards of living. The standard of living in the US is unequivocally the worst of the three.
The US has no universal healthcare, no free public college, and no strong labor movement. In fact, the US is in the grips of a destructive duopoly that's been weakening the economic stability & mobility of ordinary Americans for over half a century.
The UK, on the other hand, has the NHS. Nobody in the UK is going bankrupt or losing their homes because of medical bills, or forgoing food to afford their prescriptions.
In France, things are even more stable. They've got both universal healthcare and free college. Not to mention an incredibly robust labor movement that isn't afraid to strike and do so with gusto.
Comparing these nations reveals the stark reality that citizens in America have it tangibly worse, and are commoditized in many more ways. Americans have to pay for things that Brits and French people receive as services.
AftyOfTheUK t1_iszovwp wrote
>But they are not comparable in the sense that all have more or less equal standards of living. The standard of living in the US is unequivocally the worst of the three.
What the in the absolute fuck are you talking about. For whom?
I live in the US. I have lived in the UK. I have lived in France. The best quality of life for most people is definitely in the US, especially for those with a decent job.
>The UK, on the other hand, has the NHS.
Holy shit dude. Ever lived there? I moved to the US, and I prefer the healthcare here. Yes it's expensive, but at least I actually get some. Unlike on the NHS.
The NHS is great for emergencies and huge events, and absolutely terrible for anything else.
>Comparing these nations reveals the stark reality that citizens in America have it tangibly worse
How the fuck do you get there? Land and homes are cheaper, median wages are 20% or more high, taxes are lower. Healthcare expenditure is about the ONLY metric by which the US is worse for most people.
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_iszq6ug wrote
> What the in the absolute fuck are you talking about. For whom?
https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI
> I live in the US. I have lived in the UK. I have lived in France. The best quality of life for most people is definitely in the US, especially for those with a decent job.
That's false. The data proves your wrong. Your lived experience doesn't refute measurable metrics of the wellbeing of a society.
> Holy shit dude. Ever lived there? I moved to the US, and I prefer the healthcare here. Yes it's expensive, but at least I actually get some. Unlike on the NHS.
Again, the data proves otherwise.
> How the fuck do you get there? Land and homes are cheaper, median wages are 20% or more high, taxes are lower. Healthcare expenditure is about the ONLY metric by which the US is worse for most people.
Nah, check the OECD rankings.
You clearly didn't live in the UK or France for very long. Military?
AftyOfTheUK t1_isztbv7 wrote
>You clearly didn't live in the UK or France for very long. Military?
I lived in the UK for 40 years. France for a little under 1 year. Now 3 years here in the US.
The "data" proves me wrong, huh? I posted earlier some metrics for you. Median income, 20% higher (massively moreso with recent changes to the US/UK exchange rate). Cost of housing lower. Cost of cars, lower. Gas - half price. Taxes - lower. Sales taxes - lower, and sometimes don't exist.
The list goes on and on. If you have a decent job, the US is a far better place to live than the UK.
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_iszuc0d wrote
> I lived in the UK for 40 years. France for a little under 1 year. Now 3 years here in the US.
So you don't have enough experience with either France or the US.
> The "data" proves me wrong, huh?
Yeah. I've linked you to the data. Here's some more.
> I posted earlier some metrics for you. Median income, 20% higher (massively moreso with recent changes to the US/UK exchange rate). Cost of housing lower. Cost of cars, lower. Gas - half price. Taxes - lower. Sales taxes - lower, and sometimes don't exist.
[Citation needed]
> The list goes on and on. If you have a decent job, the US is a far better place to live than the UK.
That's a big fucking IF seeing as there are scant few decent jobs. See my earlier link to America's labor force participation rate.
Also, there's the fact that most Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Well over half. In the UK, only about a third of workers do.
AftyOfTheUK t1_it0apd4 wrote
>So you don't have enough experience with either France or the US.
How much experience do I need? The healthcare and particularly dentistry that I get here in Northern California is light years ahead of what I got in the UK. How many years do I need to be here before I've experienced enough of the health system for your needs?
I still say the NHS is fantastic for emergencies and life threatening conditions, but useless for anythign else.
>[Citation needed]
Seriously? You weren't aware that the median income in the US is 67.5k USD [1] and in the UK is 31.5k GBP? [2] You need a citation for that? Seriously? Do you need a citation to do the math and realize that income, normalized for currency, is around double that in the US that it is in the UK?
What kind of citations do you need to understand the tax rate differences? That the effective tax rate on 67.5k is only a little higher in the US than it is in the UK on an income less than half that of the US? [3] [4]
Do you need a citation for gas prices being almost double, too? [5]
How about citations for sales tax being less than half (and often infinitely less) than in the UK? [6] [7]
Do you need a citation showing that the average home size in the US is way more than DOUBLE the average home size in the UK, despite costing around the same? [8] [9]
​
>That's a big fucking IF seeing as there are scant few decent jobs.
What the fuck are you talking about? The median person in the US earns around double the median person in the UK. There are literally tens and tens of millions of good jobs. Clearly, obviously, based on them all paying so well.
You needed me to give you citations for headline figures that are readily available. Things that literally ANYONE with any knowledge of these two countries knows without needing to look it up.
You appear to have no first-hand knowledge, no awareness of the differences, and are just attempting to put the US down while failing to understand that the real data points to the opposite of your conclusions.
​
[2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2021#:~:text=Median%20household%20disposable%20income%20in,(ONS%20Household%20Finances%20Survey.
[3] https://smartasset.com/taxes/income-taxes#FoQE9iKTft
[4] https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
[5] https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/
[6] https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_it0fwmp wrote
> How much experience do I need? The healthcare and particularly dentistry that I get here in Northern California is light years ahead of what I got in the UK.
Cool beans. Doesn't change the fact that by objective measurements, the US healthcare system is more expensive and has less desirable outcomes.
Also, you know, millions falling into poverty because of medical costs. That alone puts America's healthcare system far below the UK's.
> Seriously?
I'm glad you found some sources, but your cherry picked bits of data don't refute the more comprehensive scope of my data.
I've proven that economic mobility in America has all but disappeared. The most recent CBO report proves that beyond a doubt.
The facts pertaining to the various healthcare systems also cannot be disputed. America's healthcare system costs more, but our healthcare outcomes are worse and the financial toll it takes on people is far and beyond anything else experienced by anyone else in the world.
Even developing nations have universal healthcare.
> What the fuck are you talking about? The median person in the US earns around double the median person in the UK.
Now calculate it without the top 10%. Even just the top 1% majorly skews things.
> There are literally tens and tens of millions of good jobs. Clearly, obviously, based on them all paying so well.
Then why do most Americans live paycheck to paycheck?
> You needed me to give you citations for headline figures that are readily available.
Because I was hoping you'd come to the realization that headline figures don't ever tell the whole story (which is typical of headlines).
You didn't come to that realization, sadly. A bit too thick, I guess.
> You appear to have no first-hand knowledge,
I've actually lived in Europe for over 10 years and in America for over 10 years so my lived experience is much more reliable than yours.
But I don't invoke it because the data proves my point, and outweighs both of our lived experiences.
AftyOfTheUK t1_it0loz3 wrote
>Cool beans. Doesn't change the fact that by objective measurements, the US healthcare system is more expensive and has less desirable outcomes.
It is more expensive (that's not always a bad thing, having costs makes things better prioritized, though it's TOO much more expensive) but on outcomes...
It's worth noting that "has less desirable outcomes" mostly comes from stats related to healthcare for the entire population. This means it includes lots of people who don't have health insurance, the homeless etc. This skews the data pretty violently - if you take the subset that have jobs and decent health insurance, you'll find the numbers suddenly look a whole lot better.
>I'm glad you found some sources, but your cherry picked bits of data don't refute the more comprehensive scope of my data.
Wow. Just wow. Which of my data was "cherry-picked" exactly? National medians and averages? How exactly COULD I have cherry picked any of them?
>I've proven that economic mobility in America has all but disappeared.
Tell that to the guy I hired to bring his team to build fencing recently. He immigrated to the US just 15 years ago, spoke almost no English, knew how to weld, but worked his first year in fast food. Since then he got a job welding, then in auto repair, took over the shop, now has a welding company, an auto shop, and about fifteen mostly full time guys doing concrete, welding, fencing etc. He seems to have done fine with NO money, qualifications, contacts and just one vaguely marketable skill.
Just because lots of people are failing doesn't mean it's difficult.
>Now calculate it without the top 10%.
Oh. My. Lord. HOW DUMB ARE YOU? I gave you the MEDIAN figures.
Do you know what median means? Seriously, I'm not debating this with you. I gave you your sources you wanted, and you don't even have the reading/math comprehension of a 14 year old to understand it when the data is distilled down to the most simple presentation possible.
THE MEDIAN INCOME IS THE INCOME OF THE MOST ORDINARY PERSON IN THE COUNTRY.
I'm not going to debate with a mental midget, good day to you, sir.
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_it39ysf wrote
> This means it includes lots of people who don't have health insurance, the homeless etc.
Which is a flaw in our healthcare system lol
> This skews the data pretty violently -
No, it proves my point that America's healthcare system is in shambles.
> if you take the subset that have jobs and decent health insurance, you'll find the numbers suddenly look a whole lot better.
That's called cherry picking. We're talking about public health. America ranks the lowest out of the three nations we've discussed.
> Wow. Just wow. Which of my data was "cherry-picked" exactly? National medians and averages? How exactly COULD I have cherry picked any of them?
All of it. You chose headline figures that obscure the truth. Just like the headline unemployment rate obscures the fact that our labor force participation rate hasn't ever recovered from 2008.
> Tell that to the guy I hired to bring his team to build fencing recently. He immigrated to the US just 15 years ago,
15 years ago, things were different.
Just like 30 years ago, he would've had even more opportunity.
The data doesn't lie. I've given you links to the hard data proving that the poorest in America work, but don't increase their wealth and can't reliably move from one quintile of wealth to the next.
> Just because lots of people are failing doesn't mean it's difficult.
The data proves that it's much harder today. It gets harder every year that wages continue to remain disconnected from the cost of living, and they detached quite some time ago.
> Oh. My. Lord. HOW DUMB ARE YOU? I gave you the MEDIAN figures.
And they include the highest earners.
> Do you know what median means?
Are you asking me because you don't know?
> Seriously, I'm not debating this with you. I gave you your sources you wanted, and you don't even have the reading/math comprehension of a 14 year old to understand it when the data is distilled down to the most simple presentation possible.
Says the guy ignoring all of the hard data and graphs.
You linked me to landing pages. You have no hard data and it's obvious.
> THE MEDIAN INCOME IS THE INCOME OF THE MOST ORDINARY PERSON IN THE COUNTRY.
And $67.5k isn't enough to live on. That's why most Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Over 2x as many Americans do compared to Brits.
Yet you try to feebly argue that America's economy is better off, that American workers have more stability. Even though twice as many of them live hand to mouth compared to Brits.
You have no logical argument. You're utterly limited by your lived experiences and seem incapable of looking at hard data and processing it.
AftyOfTheUK t1_it3eolv wrote
Like I said, not debating with a mental midget. Doubling down on your positions while offering nothing new is not the mark of a good debater. You still don't understand what median means. LOL
>And $67.5k isn't enough to live on. That's why most Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Over 2x as many Americans do compared to Brits.
LOL, you're a fool. Americans earn 2x as much, have cheaper equivalent housing, cheaper cars, cheaper gas and much less tax. It's simply not possible - unless the average healthcare spend is 20k+ per working person (hint: it's not) for life to be economically harder for an American than a Brit.
However, it is possible for them to spend stupidly, and end up living paycheck to paycheck.
​
Good day.
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_it3fh4h wrote
> Like I said, not debating with a mental midget. Doubling down on your positions while offering nothing new is not the mark of a good debater. You still don't understand what median means. LOL
No, I do. But it's not proving what you think it is.
> LOL, you're a fool. Americans earn 2x as much, have cheaper equivalent housing, cheaper cars, cheaper gas and much less tax.
The data proves otherwise.
> It's simply not possible
Lol
Reality hurts
> However, it is possible for them to spend stupidly,
No, it's literally just wages having stagnated for 50+ years.
Here are some simple graphs that even someone as uneducated as you should be able to grasp
AftyOfTheUK t1_it3g62z wrote
>No, it's literally just wages having stagnated for 50+ years.
LOL again total failure to understand that it's even worse in the UK. Bye
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_it3mwfu wrote
Yet you can't provide any data to prove that assertion
Which means you're full of it lol
AftyOfTheUK t1_it41izl wrote
I posted up links specifically to income, taxes, housing costs etc.
Go click on them and read them.
idapitbwidiuatabip OP t1_it48qcw wrote
None of those links prove the comparative assertion you’re making.
You have no data on economic mobility in the UK
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