Submitted by lughnasadh t3_yw53j1 in Futurology
Reply to comment by Tombfyre in Italian startup Energy Dome claims its CO2 grid storage batteries are cheaper than lithium-ion, and need no rare minerals, being made from just off-the-shelf steel components, water & CO2. It's opening its first 200 MWh facility in Sardinia in 2023 by lughnasadh
Great video on this here:
Seems so much more promising than other potential solutions, like compressed air.
Nice, I'll check that out. Yeah I was thinking this would likely be better than air storage. Seems like it might simpler, and possibly more efficient.
Well that just sounds like a liquid air battery with more steps?
Liquid Air Batteries are by far the best possible solution I've seen, to support a full renewables grid and help sequester carbon.
They can harness and store over-peak power for months for later discharge
Can be constructed with standard piping and tanks already mass available
Sellable liquid nitrogen and oxygen created as primary course of function
Purifies air of other pollutants as a primary course of function
- Isolates atmospheric CO2 as a primary course of function, path to long-term sequestration.
The first two grid scale plants are going online within the next two years.
This isn't carbon negative and requires a lot of additional infrastructure to manage the CO2, which will surely leak to some extent. It seems roundly inferior overall.
To my understanding, the benefits from co2 come from being able to compress it into a liquid at room temperature leading to an efficiency advantage, and simpler, probably cheaper systems to build.
But moreover, I don't see any reason why both couldn't be viable in different situations, with liquid air near sources of waste thermal energy, etc.
Their projected round trip efficiency is worse at the low end and break even at the high end. They share the same cheap industrial construction components.
Is just seems less valuable overall, especially as its not carbon negative. Like yeah hybrid cars help, but less valuable than full electric
The startup cost difference isn't negligible, and it could easily be used with a carbon capture project.
And I'll wait for third party tests on either's efficiency before I believe the real world numbers.
And, as someone who enjoys going offroad/off grid for longer than an electric will allow, I absolutely see the use case for hybrids.
You don't have any numbers showing a lower start up cost, but blindly assert it must be better, while "waiting for numbers", wherein numbers projected are worse for your case - yep.
"Using it with carbon capture" is less efficient than the system which does both since much of the power your saving is then earmarked for capture, not going back to the grid.
Try another analogy: peaker planets are incandescent bulbs, your compact florescence are better to be sure but led have no mercury and last longer and use less power still.
Why are you so defensive about finding out there are even better options available?
Because I doubt that a more complex system that requires extreme cold, and excess thermal energy and the storage of both will have both efficiency and cost advantages over a similar, less complex system that can function at ambient temperatures.
As this is a battery, it would be a one time carbon capture energy price, and then would be a form of sequestering it. It wouldn't be a constant input.
And until both are proven in the real world, where both are currently in the process of doing so. I don't think claiming one is so much better that the other has no use is warranted.
That is a better analogy than hybrids. Still don't think it's very applicable based on what I've seen.
You are underestimating the difficulty and especially the expense of dealing with cryogenic liquids, especially over the long term. Both the initial and ongoing maintenance costs of cryogenic pumps, seals, and pressure vessels is FAR more expensive than the very modest requirements for liquefying and storing CO2.
Just the fact that you can indefinitely store arbitrarily large quantities of liquefied CO2 in a room-temperature pressure vessel is a HUGE Advantage over dealing with cryogenic liquids. Bulk CO2 storage tanks and all the associated manifolds, valves, piping, and associated ancillary equipment don’t need to operate at high pressures or extreme temperatures, which means that they can be manufactured and maintained at far lower expense
Thanks for the YT link. That was worth the watch
The most critical part of this design is that utilizing the CO2 phase change from liquid to gaseous form and back limits overall pressure on system components to about 1200 psi, probably averaging closer to 850-900.
This means that the tanks, piping, manifolds, etc. do not have to handle high pressure like they would with a compressed air system, and can be built much more cheaply while still maintaining good safety margins.
I mean, compressed air is an awful energy storage method, so better than that is not an accomplishment
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