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whyamihereonreddit t1_iwqbeh3 wrote

Reply to comment by Kaionacho in Overhyping hydrogen as a fuel risks endangering net-zero goals by filosoful

Why are you saying it's not possible? There are a lot of projects being developed right now with large solar sites paired with electrolysers to produce green hydrogen.

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Alis451 t1_iwqj938 wrote

What he means is that there isn't currently enough Green Hydrogen throughput for all vehicles to run on Hydrogen, not even enough if all current EVs were converted to Hydrogen. Most of the current hydrogen fuel is Blue Hydrogen.

>Which is currently just not possible, but maybe in the future.

The biggest problem I have with Hydrogen is that it is super difficult to actually store, it is a slippery little bastard, so it doesn't make the best energy storage medium.

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TjW0569 t1_iwqltod wrote

Works pretty good if you bind it with some carbon.

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CHRLZ_IIIM t1_iwqzlkl wrote

Hydrocarbons how come we never thought of that

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TjW0569 t1_iwr1lvm wrote

If only there were some process that scrubbed the atmosphere of CO2, combined it with hydrogen to make hydrocarbons, and released the oxygen as a gas.

Seems far-fetched, I know.

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Phssthp0kThePak t1_iwr9l2x wrote

This is good idea, but what about nitrogen? CO2 is too dilute in the atmosphere. We could use ammonia rather than methane.

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TjW0569 t1_iwrq4zi wrote

That sort of reduces to the problem of getting the hydrogen. And the higher energy density of nitrogen compounds is not always a benefit. See Texas City, 1947

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Phssthp0kThePak t1_iwrtsdd wrote

Hydrogen from water, or bio material. But, yeah, burning ammonia probably will lead to need for some heavy duty catalytic converters, I bet, to avoid smog from NOx. VW will be like, 'you thought we were bad. Wtf?'.

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Splenda t1_iwr1zyd wrote

A pity that we can no longer burn them.

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ComfortableFarmer t1_iwqn2ag wrote

A firm called Plasma Kinetics has been operating a long time. They worked out how to store 1H as a solid, and have stored it on disks. they are already involved with the automotive industry also.

I think we'll see a shift away from what everybody thinks about 1H storage.

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Alis451 t1_iwr1a5l wrote

> They worked out how to store 1H as a solid

MgH2, Magnesium Hydride was the last solid hydrogen storage medium that I saw they were working on. The problem is that it is solid, which makes it a terrible refueling storage medium, you need a liquid(like gasoline) or a gas that can be safely condensed(like propane), solids are difficult to extract the energy back out from, though not impossible, especially if they sublime under heat or are able to be activated while in a solution.

Palladium is also a fantastic Hydrogen storage device, with being able to store up to 900x its volume in hydrogen or something like that, palladium is already expensive for its unique properties and uses in catalytic converters.

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ihatereddit53 t1_iwrdcqd wrote

Why cant u take the hydrogen atoms out of water? Then all you need for fuel is... water... and whatever crazy machine that can grab the hydrogen

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_Bl4ze t1_iwru7bn wrote

Electrolysis. Not a very crazy machine, but also not very efficient though.

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Alis451 t1_iwry9vy wrote

> Then all you need for fuel is... water...

water is super heavy and not very hydrogen dense, much unlike hydrocarbons, you are now back to the too heavy thing you are trying to prevent. also adding an electrolysis device TO the vehicle won't exactly... work. especially when you are trying to harvest green energy, from you know... solar/wind/etc. power plants.

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ihatereddit53 t1_iwrz6cs wrote

I mean, is water heavier than gasoline? How would it be different? Are we just talking efficiency like the other person? Because if so then its not the tech itself but that the tech needs to advance enough to be viable in that situation - still a propaganda article from a person with an agenda.

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Alis451 t1_iws0fmv wrote

> I mean, is water heavier than gasoline?

very much

>Hydrogen is measured by the kilogram. 1 kilogram is 1 gallon of gasoline equivalent (gge).

>It takes 3 gallons of water to make 1 kg of hydrogen

Water is 3.79 kg per gallon
Gasoline is 2.567 kg per gallon

water x3 = 11.37 kg of water to equal an equivalent amount of hydrogen energy as 2.567 kg of gasoline

or nearly 5 times the fuel weight

Usual Capacity is ~12 gallons of gas, so ~30kg (x5 = 150kg and a 36 gallon tank to hold it) basically trucking around a whole extra fat person 120kg = ~250 lbs, again not accounting for the electrolysis equipment, and the base energy you need to actually perform said electrolysis while on a vehicle.. it starts adding up fast.

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ihatereddit53 t1_iws2hc2 wrote

Soooo efficiency? Like i said?

Edit: and listen i appreciate the math and for sure i think u know what youre talking about but really its not usually the case that things are impossible, just that the right scenario hasnt been thought of and the technology hasnt caught up to the idea

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bremidon t1_iwtxwdr wrote

He said it is "--> currently(!) <-- just not possible"

-----------------------------^

Now, after having had my fun there, I would modify his statement to say that it is currently not feasible.

Let's say those projects that are being developed right now all work out. First, it will be years until they do. Ok, let's stay happy and optimistic. They do work out.

Now the lessons of the projects have to be implemented in widescale development. Conservatively, this is going to take at least 5 years.

We are looking at a best-case scenario where hydrogen will be sort of ready to start in about 10 years.

But it's not like everyone, everywhere is going to get hydrogen right away. We've watched this play out most recently with batteries. To give us some context, it will take *another* 10 years for hydrogen to reach the same point that batteries have now.

That is 20 years until hydrogen can reach the same level of penetration that its main rival, the battery, has right now. And we can see that batteries are going to need at least another 5 years to become the dominant energy transport.

So if hydrogen can be developed as fast as that, then it would take hydrogen 25 years to reach some level of prominence in our economy. Meanwhile, of course, battery technology will not have just stagnated.

I'm not saying that hydrogen has no role to play. But it is 100% being hyped up by a dying industry as a last-gasp attempt to remain relevant. I don't blame them for that. I do reserve blame for people who fall for it, though.

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whyamihereonreddit t1_iwu7ua5 wrote

Hydrogen isn't fighting for the same space as lithium batteries. Hydrogen would work a lot better for long duration or seasonal storage which lithium batteries just can't do economically. And we don't have the need for that long duration storage in the US yet (except maybe in California) and won't until there's around 75% renewable penetration, so it's fine if hydrogen is 5 years out.

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bremidon t1_iwufd78 wrote

>Hydrogen would work a lot better for long duration

Really? You sure about that? Because hydrogen is extremely bad at long duration storage.

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whyamihereonreddit t1_iwug6yi wrote

Yes, use excess renewable energy while the sun is shining and the wind is blowing to generate green hydrogen. Pump it into some salt caverns (or storage tanks if less MWh are needed). Then when the renewable resource isn't producing, you have hydrogen ready to go for longer durations.

It's not suitable for every application, but there are scenarios where hydrogen makes sense.

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bremidon t1_iwuk4kq wrote

What is your solution to keep all that hydrogen from leaking away? Storing hydrogen is notoriously difficult.

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OffEvent28 t1_iwxemwn wrote

I think storage of hydrogen will work best when you are using it as a time-shifting storehouse. Generate it during the day when the sun shines and use it the following night to generate electricity when the sun is not shining. Storage for half a day, not half a year. The shorter the time it is in storage the less you loose through the walls of the storage container.

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DonQuixBalls t1_iwv3weo wrote

>There are a lot of projects being developed right now

So you agree they aren't possible today.

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whyamihereonreddit t1_iwvtbp6 wrote

It is possible today. They are being built to make it possible and there are small scale sites that prove it's possible. I'm not talking about R&D development.

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