Submitted by filosoful t3_yxm3fo in Futurology
rossco311 t1_iwr6z95 wrote
This is nonsense. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on the planet. It's pure folly that we aren't working at doing everything possible to convert to using it on masse.
deadplant_ca t1_iws5zbj wrote
What? No it isn't.
Where is all this hydrogen??
There are no hydrogen resources on this planet. Wtf are you talking about? We have to make hydrogen by splitting it out of water or methane.
It takes more power to produce hydrogen than we can get back by using it for transport. On earth, hydrogen is a battery, not an energy source. (Out in the solar system there are actual hydrogen resources that could be used as energy sources out there in the future)
rossco311 t1_iws72wp wrote
>Where is all this hydrogen?
It's attached to all kinds of other things
From the encyclopedia Britannica:
As part of innumerable carbon compounds, hydrogen is present in all animal and vegetable tissue and in petroleum. Even though it is often said that there are more known compounds of carbon than of any other element, the fact is that, since hydrogen is contained in almost all carbon compounds and also forms a multitude of compounds with all other elements (except some of the noble gases), it is possible that hydrogen compounds are more numerous.
deadplant_ca t1_iwsadsb wrote
Ok, I was being a bit of a dick there. Sorry.
Hydrogen that is attached to all kinds of things is not usable in an engine or fuel cell.
Since there are no resources of free hydrogen on our planet. we have to produce it by splitting it out of molecules like water (h2o).
We do that using electricity
Now we can use it to turn our wheels, great.
We can do that with a fuel cell or by burning it. The fuel cell is most efficient. It combines the stored hydrogen with oxygen from the atmosphere producing clean water out the tailpipe!
At this stage you're probably seeing the problem. We start with water and end with water. The only energy entering the process is the electricity we used to split the hydrogen from the oxygen in the first step. Without a source of free hydrogen, the process is simply another type of battery to store that original electrical power.
That doesn't mean it's useless. It's a higher density battery than the solid state options or lithium ion batteries. But it's far less energy efficient so it's only likely to find a niche where very large capacity batteries are required.
rossco311 t1_iwsii7o wrote
All good, I think we generally can agree that as a clean method to store energy, hydrogen is a good option. The efficiency of that production is perhaps the hurdle to overcome. I learned recently about chemical reactions that allow hydrogen to be released. These processes rely upon the reactivity of the elements rather than electrical energy. I think the more humanity can explore these options, the better off we all will be :)
deadplant_ca t1_iwsj4fs wrote
Absolutely. I don't think it's an especially good option right now but it's not fundamentally bad. It definitely deserves a place in the mix. That niche could grow or shrink in the future depending on how tech develops.
bremidon t1_iwu0z53 wrote
>The efficiency of that production is perhaps the hurdle to overcome.
No. It is *a* hurdle to overcome.
The next one is transport, and this is more difficult than is often appreciated. Sure, we *could* use our existing pipes, but anyone suggesting this tends to leave out a pretty big details: those pipes need to be refurbished to be able to transport hydrogen without losing most of it.
Closing out the big three is storage. This is a true pita. Either you need huge tanks (unviable), extremely thick, heavy tanks (expensive and heavy), or cold tanks (expensive and inefficient). If you want to speculate, there is the chance that we might be able to store it by injecting hydrogen into some solid material. This tech exists today, but it's unclear if it can be mass produced.
All three can be overcome. All three *must* be overcome for hydrogen to succeed. I personally think we are 20-30 years away from all three being ready for prime time, and by that time, I suspect that hydrogen will be mostly used as an industrial input.
rossco311 t1_iwv3stj wrote
Production - I replied to your other post, there are methods that we aren't using that would be able to help us acquire hydrogen both inexpensively and without massive power use.
Transport - If we're simply talking about transporting hydrogen, I agree it's a bit tricky with our current infrastructure. I am working closely with some people that are developing lightweight tank systems using a combination of carbon fiber for strength and a hydrogen membrane to prevent leakage. There is also the option of transporting hydrogen compounds that don't need the special handling that pure hydrogen does.
Storage - There are a few interesting suggestions on how to store hydrogen that I've been made aware of. One such method is to sequester the gas inside existing underground salt cones. Another option is simply to store hydrogen containing compounds and then produce the hydrogen as required by combining them as needed. There is some very interesting work happening in Germany right now with Magnesium Hydride for example.
I agree that humanity has hurdles to overcome in putting hydrogen to work for us en masse. The sooner we start figuring out how to get over them, the better off we will all be.
bremidon t1_iwvdg1b wrote
Production - You are going to have to be significantly more clear in what you are suggesting. Otherwise you are saying that the entire world is filled with idiots unable to see such a way forward and unwilling to become rich in the process. If such an inexpensive way forward exists, why did the hydrogen industry decide to give batteries such a head start before figuring it out? Quite sporting of them, really. But we were identifying hurdles, and this one was already accepted out of the gate.
Transport - Accepted as hurdle (and that is all I'm looking for here).
Storage - I'm underwhelmed that we are still at the suggestion stage here. I will take this to mean that it has been accepted as a hurdle.
I continue to maintain that we are 20-30 years away from a viable hydrogen system that can be rolled out across our economy. Because of this, I do not see hydrogen playing a part in most of the transport industry, as that will have been effectively solved by batteries; we will be in a near-closed system by then. But I do see a significant role in industry and heating.
Finally, I agree we should be on this as soon as possible. It may be disappointing for people who were still holding out hope that hydrogen would solve our transportation needs (I used to be one of them), but there is good news in that batteries have unexpectedly become an effective solution.
rossco311 t1_iwvuyvd wrote
Indeed there is a lot of ground to cover on this and I think the more demand that can exist for hydrogen, the more emphasis will be placed on methods of acquiring it.
bremidon t1_iwu0j5i wrote
>It's attached to all kinds of other things
That was kinda his point.
rossco311 t1_iwv156c wrote
Indeed, and it's a valid point, but that doesn't mean hydrogen acquisition isn't a good solution. There are multiple ways of acquiring pure hydrogen without using power. One such method is combining elemental compounds with hydrogen atoms attached in a closed system. This allows hydrogen to be released in the reaction (and captured) in the process.
The idea of hydrogen being energy intensive to acquire comes from a limited consideration of the methods available to us. Just because we aren't doing them currently, doesn't mean it should stay that way.
bremidon t1_iwvbxn2 wrote
What is that method called? I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
rossco311 t1_iwvum8a wrote
One method I'm thinking of, I'm not certain the name of it.
A closed system where iron filings (Fe) are combined with sulfuric acid (H2SO4) and the chemical reaction between them releases H2 (Hydrogen) and the remaining product is FESO4 (Iron Sulfate) and some water (H2O). This method was used to acquire hydrogen to fill gas balloons and airships back in the 1930's. The Iron Sulfate produced is also a valuable fertilizer for the agricultural industry.
There are many other methods as well and I'm certain that given the right appetite for hydrogen use, further development will be possible. Ultimately though you are right about the amount of time involved, we're decades from being at scale for production regardless.
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