Submitted by darth_nadoma t3_z43fnt in Futurology
Comments
Cheben t1_ixph89k wrote
The EU has higher limits than the US in many places. They are length dependent, but the absolute EU wide Max is 40/44 tons (its complicated, to say the least). Northern Europe (Sweden, Finland) has regular limits of 74 tons. Some countries has limits in the 50-60 tons range
And it is important to know that the 44 ton truck is limited to that, with cargo. If you are only allowed 40, you can use the same vehicle and load it with a bit less cargo and be fine
accountsdontmatter t1_ixq1ihh wrote
Surprises me this. I live in the UK and have always thought US trucks are massive with enormous loads.
FalconMirage t1_ixqpkjw wrote
US trucks are massive because they are more efficient on long range and straight roads, the latter of which is rarer in Europe
accountsdontmatter t1_ixrmv29 wrote
Oh yes I have been to the USA. Felt like I needed a car to cross the road. Would see Volvo estate cars in the ‘compact’ car parking spaces. Saw a train coming over the rockies, couldn’t see either end it was so long!
duartes07 t1_ixpmyq3 wrote
I assume it's all miscommunication as 44 tonnes is around the maximum gross vehicle weight (single vehicle or combo vehicle) for any cross-European drive. It's probably saying that the tractor truck from Renault is rated to haul a semitrailer with a combined weight of up to 44 tonnes
[deleted] t1_ixpgzxo wrote
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Note_Square t1_ixsql4a wrote
Canada maxes or around 65 tons
SoulReddit13 t1_ixpc9uk wrote
You’re a allowed a few extra tons if it’s electric.
hikingsticks t1_ixpremf wrote
Electric tons are lighter than hydrocarbon tons
MarmonRzohr t1_ixpw8z5 wrote
I think that comment is referencing the fact that in the U.S. electric trucks are allowed a higher weight limit to allow for the weight of the battery.
Not sure if that has been implmented in the EU or where.
Surur t1_ixpwv6l wrote
EU also apparently.
dc456 t1_ixps8sm wrote
Th EU countries with a 44 tonne limit apply it to ICE vehicles too.
MidnightAdventurer t1_ixphhbr wrote
44 (metric) ton max isn’t that unusual. NZ has a 44 ton max for regular vehicles with a fairly common special class that goes over 50.
Westerdutch t1_ixpvzol wrote
> US road weight limit is at 40t
Netherlands is 50t if i remember correctly, that about 55 'us' tonnes. Plenty countries in the eu have even higher limits. Its incredible what roads can take if you actually maintain them ;)
Im not sure how much renault is targeting the US if at all, the US seems to prefer some really odd trucks. Even volvo has to make trucks with them big bonnets specifically for the US market to even get a foot in the door.
YetYetAnotherPerson t1_ixqd45z wrote
I like big bonnets and I can not lie🎶
I presume it's because we have relaxed length limits and don't like cabovers from a comfort or safety perspective
ian2121 t1_ixqjlo5 wrote
The US interstate system can handle larger loads fine. It is the county and city road systems that aren’t designed at all for larger loads. The US also has a Supreme Court that has for a long time frowned on most restrictions to freight mobility. And you can trust Congress to either not act at all or act in the most irresponsible manner possible.
SpoonNZ t1_ixs3cjz wrote
I used to travel to the US a lot, one thing I found peculiar (coming from NZ) is that all your trucks have a single trailer. Very common here to have two full size trailers. Weight limit is 53 tonnes, or 58.4 of your freedom tons.
dc456 t1_ixps1gh wrote
> Which I’m not sure how that works since the US road weight limit is at 40t
Are they selling them in the USA?
darth_nadoma OP t1_ixp1fj0 wrote
People who mocked electric cars stated that electric heavy trucks are impossible due to battery weight. But now they available for ordering from Renault. With manufacturing facility located at Bourg-en-Bresse, in the middle of France.
Weighing in at 44 tons, and capable of going 300 km on a single charge. Although Manufacturers still don't say how much weight will they be able to carry. Guess that depends on the distance.
tomtttttttttttt t1_ixp95a8 wrote
I don't think it weighs 44t.
44t is the maximum total loaded weight for a lorry in the EU. (Vehicle plus load)
https://www.thetruckexpert.co.uk/renault-trucks-unveils-its-electric-t-and-c-models/
Here it describes it as a 44t lorry which means it's classed as a vehicle that can go up to that weight, bearing in mind that there are different licences you need to get as you go up weight limits.
I think the article has misunderstood what Renault mean when they call it a 44t lorry. If the cab alone weighed that, it would not be able to carry any load.
darth_nadoma OP t1_ixpjag8 wrote
Thank you. That wasn't at all clear from the article I linked.
mark-haus t1_ixpw7td wrote
44t I believe is the weight you'd use if you want to travel between every EU country. Each individual country sometimes has higher maximums like Sweden and Finland for example, but all of them will allow at least 44t.
tomtttttttttttt t1_ixq5smf wrote
Yes, you are right, I wasn't aware that some countries have higher limits before today.
ProfessorHermit t1_ixp79ki wrote
It’s available to order but the load capacity isn’t listed?
tomtttttttttttt t1_ixp8vtr wrote
I'm assuming they only supply the cab so they can't give a load capacity beyond 44t, since they won't know the trailer weight.
I'm pretty certain the article OP has linked had misunderstood what Renault mean when they say it's a 44t lorry. This refers to the total load plus vehicle weight maximum, which is a maximum of 44t in the EU.
TheFreakish t1_ixpm4zo wrote
My work truck does 1000-1400km. Europe is a lot smaller than Canada though.
MarmonRzohr t1_ixpwp04 wrote
Yeah, naturally, battery-powered trucks like these will not replace diesel on long routes.
Renault says on their site that they are intended for shorter, regional routes. For example they say that the largest truck model coming is 2023 will have a 300 km range with a practical range of 500 km with one, one-hour charging stop.
Kempeth t1_ixptt0u wrote
Germany is working on overhead power lines for trucks. If that works out and is retrofitted onto enough highways then 300km would easily be enough range to get onto the highway and off again, riding the rest of the trip on grid power.
Surur t1_ixpx2et wrote
I really support this idea. The pantographs can be retro-fitted for only a few thousand $, and can be used with both hybrid and electric trucks, and would obviously pay for itself in reduced fuel fees, so I feel this is a system which could easily be rolled out piecemeal, starting on major highways.
anschutz_shooter t1_ixpzqiy wrote
Most trucking isn't like that though - even in Canada. Measuring by "daily journeys", local freight dominates over long-haul, and the average journey is well under 300km - railhead/port to warehouse, warehouse to supermarket.
Or distribution between a company's production sites (e.g. where I am in the UK we have a major manufacturer with six factories and one big goods-inbound logistics centre. So they have a fleet of trucks continuously ferrying components from the centre to factories, all <20km. There will be similar arrangements in some Canadian cities). Ideal application for an electric truck (particularly since you control both ends, and can have charging infra anywhere - though these trucks could do at least 5 rounds trips on a single charge).
In truth, 1400km truck journeys shouldn't exist outside of mad niche cases like Ice Road trucking. Between cities or provinces the cargo should just go on a train. Safer, better timetable reliability, lower carbon, one driver per hundred wagons, instead of one-per-trailer.
Even in the UK, companies like Amazon and Tesco (supermarket) are moving heavily to railfreight because it's just more reliable than road haulage. That's mostly for freight between southern England and Scotland, which is "upto 500km". Also, for stuff arriving at ports, so it goes straight on a train and doesn't touch a road until it's near its final destination.
dc456 t1_ixpsbsw wrote
1400km a day?
TheFreakish t1_ixpx5ac wrote
I've done 1200km for a day of work. 1400km per fuel up.
dc456 t1_ixpxqal wrote
That’s not an issue in the EU, as it wouldn’t be legal - you’d have driven for too long in one day. It’s not about the size of the place, it’s about the number of hours you’re allowed to drive.
MotorizaltNemzedek t1_ixpyn9g wrote
Still, truckers regularly drive 550+ kms/day in Europe
Hippemann t1_ixq5tyb wrote
I think they legally have to stop driving for 45 minutes every 4.5 hours in France (or any combinaison with a similar ratio). Which would be perfectly apt to recharge the truck battery!
thefpspower t1_ixqeaqw wrote
And where are the truck recharging points?
dc456 t1_ixpz0zf wrote
Yeah, and they can continue to use an ICE truck for those journey types, or top up during their break.
ricky302 t1_ixsw5b5 wrote
Really? what do you classify as a day, 12 hours? so non-stop at 100kmh for 12 hours. Yes, really believable.
TheFreakish t1_ixtinqb wrote
110kph most of the time, highway 99% of the way. I can drive 13 hours a day.
nova9001 t1_ixpf18k wrote
Nikola was worth more than $30b at its peak in 2020, so people were definitely buying into the idea of electric trucks even back in 2020.
GoTriggerYourself t1_ixpjvq0 wrote
And Tesla will deliver their trucks all the way back in 2019, also with huge public interest.
Bad-Lifeguard1746 t1_ixs3meh wrote
The Tesla CEO needs 54 billion dollars to scale up production.
Hit_Z t1_ixq50e3 wrote
300km range ... That is pretty much useless and I say this with my humble expertise of 10 years working as long haul truck driver in EU. Electric trucks will always be a joke, until technology pulls through and they design batteries that can do 1800km with a single charge with maximum permitted load. IMO Renault should take note from Iveco and focus on LNG/GNC trucks. I have driven their diesel T520 and can say that there isn't better truck confort wise currently in EU, if they start developing one with LNG/GNC engine, it will be huge success.
MrEvilFox t1_ixqn6en wrote
So in your 10 year expertise of working as a truck driver you’ve never heard of truckers having gigs where they haul local short routes (which makes up the majority of trucking): runs from warehouse to the store loading dock, or between rail yard and warehouse? That is the intended use for these trucks. No one is saying that they’re going to try to run them from Mexico to Alaska.
zoinkability t1_ixqolv1 wrote
There is a reason you need to use the phrase “long haul” before “truck driver” when you describe yourself. Because there are lots of truck routes (and drivers) that are short and medium haul. Which is what Renault says this truck is for.
AyBruhBee t1_ixp788o wrote
Holy shit, an average semi truck weighs about 15k pounds, this is just a cabover and it weighs 88k pounds? I really dont want to be in front of one of these during the snow time, god forbid a pileup. Thats agonizing to even just think about. All that fire...
tomtttttttttttt t1_ixp8lnv wrote
I don't think it weighs 44t.
44t is the maximum total loaded weight for a lorry in the EU. (Vehicle plus load)
https://www.thetruckexpert.co.uk/renault-trucks-unveils-its-electric-t-and-c-models/
Here it describes it as a 44t lorry which means it's classed as a vehicle that can go up to that weight, bearing in mind that there are different licences you need to get as you go up weight limits.
I think the article that OP has read has misunderstood what Renault mean when they call it a 44t lorry. If the cab alone weighed that, it would not be able to carry any load.
AyBruhBee t1_ixp9df4 wrote
Yeah marketing all looks very misleading, its a 44 ton GVWR but nowhere does it state the Curb Weight of the semi itself. I guess thats a surprise waiting for truckers at the weigh stations
tomtttttttttttt t1_ixp9s8h wrote
I mean surely Renault must say that somewhere, it's got to be vital for a lot of trucking companies to know exactly how much weight load capacity they have. I expect it's quite high so they are trying to downplay it to get initial interest.
mo1to1 t1_ixphhoq wrote
We have for several years a garbage collector electric truck. It works fine and doesn't do a lot of noise. They are now everywhere around the country even Renault based.
Electric truck are definitely a thing. There are more and more delivery electric trucks (12-20t).
FlametopFred t1_ixpfsu5 wrote
be so nice to get many diesel trucks off the roads and replace them with electric
some parts of my city stink all the time and it's awful driving behind them while their exhaust comes in the vents
lots of heavy truck routes in my port city - most truck trips are from one port to another or to trains or to border
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CabezaDePerno t1_ixpsp3i wrote
Good that they are keeping the truck design. I really don't like when those companies star going "electrical" and they change radically the design of the chasis. For a better adoption nowdays and a good transition you need to keep make the same design. Under the hood is going to be different, we know that and that is why customers are going to try those new products.
For mass scaling like big companies I remember whatching videos of trucks getting their batteries changed to go back to duty rapidly. It would be nice to know if you could do the same with this Renault model as well. You can avoid long charging hours.
Dracogame t1_ixrblfh wrote
The design in Europe tries to save space in length as it’s limited by regulation.
atjones111 t1_ixq9ilo wrote
Those Tesla semis will be released any day now right? Right?
Surur t1_ixqo4vw wrote
atjones111 t1_ixqpjnd wrote
I’ll believe them when I see them on the road
quettil t1_ixu6afr wrote
Then you'll just find something else to complain about.
atjones111 t1_ixug1ij wrote
What? No I like the Tesla model 3 and what not. I just hate teslas (Elon musks) marketing schemes, it’s a lot of vapor and I feel like the cyber truck and semi are that
Surur t1_ixqqbkk wrote
Fortunately, you will not have to wait very long then.
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ahchx t1_ixrvxcf wrote
lol you got downvoted because of a fact, they annunced since feburay? that they will delivery the first ones on december, but remember: REDDIT=ANTI TESLA. so anything related to tesla is downvoted. I help with an upvote but that wont change anything, anti-tesla-reddit is too strong.
hujnya t1_ixseyx2 wrote
Reddit isn't anti Tesla, Tesla just likes to promise what it can't deliver.
littlle t1_ixqkz67 wrote
Like never 😂
aaabigwyattmann4 t1_ixr7xzm wrote
Obligatory: https://youtu.be/EtEU5auF9k8
allenout t1_iy1x4a6 wrote
"Although the manufacturer doesn't say how much weight it can carry"
This is the most important thing about trucks.
FuturologyBot t1_ixp4q5d wrote
The following submission statement was provided by /u/darth_nadoma:
People who mocked electric cars stated that electric heavy trucks are impossible due to battery weight. But now they available for ordering from Renault. With manufacturing facility located at Bourg-en-Bresse, in the middle of France.
Weighing in at 44 tons, and capable of going 300 km on a single charge. Although Manufacturers still don't say how much weight will they be able to carry. Guess that depends on the distance.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/z43fnt/renaults_heavy_electric_trucks_are_now_available/ixp1fj0/
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Specific_Main3824 t1_ixq9i14 wrote
300km range (with the most expensive battery) =real world 240km, of course, when loaded, that will be 100km. Cool, but don't waste your money on their first model.
DavidKarlas t1_ixt9et1 wrote
If you have fixed route between two factories in range it might make sense…
Specific_Main3824 t1_ixtbojx wrote
There will definitely be situations where it will work fine, I think the majority will go to logistics companies, just so they can tout that we have an all electric truck, aren't we green. Someone had to make the first one, and in time, they will develop into being useful.
SomberPony t1_ixqedbq wrote
Cool. Now we just need to make a direct current power supply for the interstate system so that logistics don't have to stop and recharge.
DavidKarlas t1_ixt99mq wrote
Especially on uphill roads since they go slower, could use most of electricity directly and charge batteries at same time…
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Cdn_citizen t1_ixreoz9 wrote
I wonder if the range drops similar to EV autos in the winter, because 300kms minus 30% = 210kms.
To which if I was the driver would be concerning, especially if there’s no place to easily charge my truck enroute
hurtindog t1_ixrpu4d wrote
Please tell me they will sell a heavy duty pick up in the US. No one is stepping up to replace the heavy duty class of diesel pick up trucks in the US. It’s such a no brainer for companies like mine. I would switch to electric in a heartbeat if I could get good tow capacity and payload strength
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Note_Square t1_ixsrxfa wrote
Electric vehicles just aren't feasible in certain climates. Where I live in Canada, they are basically useless in the winter. There is so much wrong with electric vehicles so far that I just can't see a solid future with them. Lithium mining for one is far more destructive than any other traditional mining. What happens when lithium runs out? We should be focusing more on hydrogen fueled vehicles. Makes much more sense
Surur t1_ixtul79 wrote
> Lithium mining for one is far more destructive than any other traditional mining.
Really? Are you sure about that? Maybe you need to expand a bit more.
AtomGalaxy t1_ixz8e7q wrote
If cargo is going further than the range of electric trucks, it should be on a train or a giant ass ship (possibly with supplemental wind power).
MamaligaPolenta t1_ixq204h wrote
So electric trucking will come from established automotive companies not new brands like Nikola or some other ventures. What a surprise.
darth_nadoma OP t1_ixq23k9 wrote
You do not sound surprised at all.
[deleted] t1_ixpa18j wrote
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TheCandyManisHere t1_ixpcsda wrote
? This just means Renault is taking reservations. Tesla Semi has been taking reservations for some time now and will start delivering on Dec. 1. Sounds like Renault still has a ways to go.
Regardless, market is so new that it can support multiple entrants. Demand is way too high for one or two suppliers currently…so it’s a good thing that Tesla, Renault, and others are all racing to fill that demand.
Burntbigtoe t1_ixpdxzh wrote
This Renault truck competes with the Tesla truck was has 200km less range. Not sure how that's a bad month. Particularly when Tesla deliveries start in a couple of days.
MikeTheGamer2 t1_ixpb0i4 wrote
Are there enough charging stations throughout the US along the routes these trucks might be taking?
anschutz_shooter t1_ixq16gm wrote
Between the port of New York and a New York Amazon warehouse? Don't need them.
Between a Walmart distribution centre and a Walmart store? Same.
Between FedEx sorting centres, or the sorting centre and the airport mail centre? Yup.
These aren't designed for hyper-miler long-haul freight (most of which should go by train anyway). Most truck journeys are local/regional distribution, for which 300km range is more than sufficient - especially if you control both ends and can do little top-ups during the day whilst the truck is being loaded/unloaded.
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PR7ME t1_ixpjqfw wrote
Assuming it has a half decent load, the main buyers of this will be city construction groups / regular city deliveries.
The only way as a business to 'justify' this expense is the saving from air pollution charges.
zenithtreader t1_ixpot1o wrote
Err no. Wholesale electricity only costs a fraction of wholesale diesel or gas right now for the same mileages. Further more electrical drivetrains having much less moving parts and therefore require much less maintenance as well. And these two things will cost multiple trucks worth of money over its operating lifetime.
PR7ME t1_ixps0tw wrote
Current prices in Europe, no.
Electricity is more expensive. When we've seem gas prices which are the equipment of $500/barrel of oil, I highly doubt it'll be cheaper to run.
Secondly charging at 43kW/250kW is very expensive, becuase the cost of infrastructure is expensive and needs to be paid off too. The unit price of electricity is only one factor.
Don't get me wrong, these trucks will sell, but not on pure business and economic basis.
I'm no EV hater, I have had one for years, I just like to look at the numbers as well.
anschutz_shooter t1_ixq0x2i wrote
> Secondly charging at 43kW/250kW is very expensive, becuase the cost of infrastructure is expensive and needs to be paid off too. The unit price of electricity is only one factor. > > Don't get me wrong, these trucks will sell, but not on pure business and economic basis.
In reality though, almost nobody needs 250kW charging.
The average HGV will spend 9+hours charging overnight. It'll trundle from a warehouse to a supermarket (and back), possibly trickle-charging at both ends. It'll do maybe 4-5 round trips in the day, all of which could be covered by a single charge, but it'll probably get a bit of topping-up whilst material is unloaded.
There will be a handful of people doing London-Scotland trips who need a quick charge halfway, but that's not the duty-cycle most trucks work on.
It may also do some "light" journeys. For instance trailers to the Isle of Man generally get dropped off at Heysham, loaded by port tractors and forwarded by a local haulier on the island. So a Tesco tractor unit will take a loaded trailer to Heysham and either return to the warehouse unladen, or with an empty trailer - which will not tax the range too much.
Obviously they'll be a no-brainer for any sort of urban delivery where ULEZ or Congestion charging exists.
And we're assuming that diesel costs don't rise further/get taxed, or that electricity doesn't come down significantly (probably will, especially if they change how the wholesale market works, which they need to and will happen eventually).
PR7ME t1_ixq2lqp wrote
Out of curiosity, what do you think a single 43kW goes for?
And how many do you think a single depot would need?
Lastly what's the kWh rate you expect businesses to be paying overnight?
Surur t1_ixpx6tx wrote
> When we've seem gas prices which are the equipment of $500/barrel of oil, I highly doubt it'll be cheaper to run.
Solar + batteries provide a natural price cap.
MarmonRzohr t1_ixpnjgn wrote
There is a pretty good video by Engineering Explained where he does a reality check on the Tesla Semi - the principles apply to any electric truck:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv44W7xa4IU
Essentially the running cost advantage is likely going to be very significant. How large depends on the prices of industrial electricity.
Renault's battery capacities and range estimates are much more conservative than Tesla's claimed specs, but the advantage of electric on the "short" distances Renault is targeting is very clear.
PR7ME t1_ixps7rh wrote
Yes. I've seen the video. One thing that isn't factored in is everyday use, charging infrastructure is expansive, that's completely discounted in the video.
Renault is a European brand, which predominantly operates in Europe, and right now, we've got the highest electricity prices in the world.
The video might be more true for the US, but it doesn't factor European prices right now.
MarmonRzohr t1_ixpuqmq wrote
>charging infrastructure is expensive
That does change the ROI time frames vs. buying just the trucks, but anyone buying electric trucks at this time is going to be buying both anyway. Charging infrastructure also pays out really fast given the upkeep cost is close to zero.
>but it doesn't factor European prices right now
Even with electricity prices which are higher the math works out. Prices in 2022 have been between 20% and 200% higher than the price quoted in the video (except Finland, which has lower prices in the 2022 Eurostat figures), and even with that kind of increase there are still very sizeable savings. And that is without calculating the difference in fuel cost.
For example, right now, in France the cost of diesel is 7.435 $/gallon(US) which is 77% higher than the diesel price used by EE.
tomtttttttttttt t1_ixpkhm4 wrote
Electricity is a lot cheaper than diesel, especially in Europe and especially if you can hook up solar panels at your depot or a wind tubine shared by an industrial estate kind of thing.
Can't see a price for this compared to a standard diesel cab but somewhere there will come a break even point.
CriticalUnit t1_ixq8ly6 wrote
Cost of operation makes them competitive on Price.
EDIT: https://www.envasetechnologies.com/comparing-total-cost-of-ownership-electric-vs-diesel-trucks/
You can post links to you own data if you disagree, or just downvote if you don't like what these say...
Vivid-Mammoth-4161 t1_ixracpu wrote
Need fast swap battery cells…….pull up to a station, remove the discharged units and replace with a fresh charged unit. Lots of advantages to doing it this way.
[deleted] t1_ixu0dwg wrote
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aaabigwyattmann4 t1_ixr6u6b wrote
But I thought Musk said Tesla had already invented these and also with full self driving 2 years ago. /s
7DollarsOfHoobastanq t1_ixp9dss wrote
https://www.renault-trucks.com/en/electromobility
Much better details from Renault here.
Looks like there’s a bunch of smaller versions with only the biggest hitting that 44t mark. Which I’m not sure how that works since the US road weight limit is at 40t and I imagine the rest of the world is somewhat similar to that.