Submitted by tonymmorley t3_za6yyq in Futurology
Tremere1974 t1_iyknipy wrote
HIV like COVID is a RNA virus. Like COVID, HIV mutates a lot. Vaccines are not very effective for RNA virsus over time because of the mutations.
Vaccines work well against DNA viruses though, so don't consider this a antivaxx post, it's just that RNA viruses are inherently antivaxx themselves.
Alwayssunnyinarizona t1_iyl21vp wrote
Except that's not really correct. Disclaimer - I am a clinical virologist.
While it is true that RNA viruses mutate faster than DNA viruses, not all RNA viruses are the same. Some mutate almost out of control - HIV, for example, which lacks a "proof-reading " enzyme found in some RNA viruses like... You guessed it, covid-19. Those proof-reading enzymes really help minimize the mutation rates of RNA viruses that carry them; coronaviruses in general are pretty stable. The mutation rate we've seen globally over 3yrs with covid-19 is on par with the mutation rate of HIV in a single host !!!
Another RNA virus without those proof-reading enzymes, one you may have heard of? Measles virus - which is considered one of the most infectious viruses we know about, yet also one for which we have a damn good vaccine. Its genome is remarkably stable in the wild.
Yet another RNA virus you may have heard of? (I'd forgive you, since it's on the verge of being eradicated). Poliovirus. Nearly eradicated because of two very effective vaccines.
I'd post links, but all of this is publicly available knowledge on pubmed and some subs flag posts with actual science links. If you want links I'd be happy to send them by pm.
Tremere1974 t1_iyl5grv wrote
IMHO, the most life saving vaccine out there that is being criminally underutilized is for HPV. Eliminating close to 80% of uterine cancers over a lifetime, and the acceptance rate is piss poor. It's disgusting.
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And hearing "If vaccines work, why isn't there one for AIDS yet?" does frustrate things, and I tend to simplify things for those who by their knowledge level a hamster and a Tiger ought to behave identically.
morbidbutwhoisnt t1_iylhixf wrote
I think the HPV vaccine is used more than it was in the beginning based on the information I've seen just on the overall reduction rate in cancers they've seen in folks a little younger than me (I did get one of the 2 shots needed when it first came out. I had a really bad muscle reaction and did not get the second shot. Knowing now why those reactions happened I wish I had but they also say now just one shot gave some protection so I'm glad I at least got that).
I think the few people who got serious side effects were paraded around like with the whole covid misinformation but people were not dying in front of us 1000s by the day with HPV literally getting coughed in your face just by going to the store so there wasn't the urgency to stop the misinformation out there.
Plus there was the "not my child getting the shot! Thats a sex thing and they will never have sex!" I know that I had to have someone drive me in case there was a reaction and the only person available was my grandpa. I was at the top of the age range when it came out, I think like 19, and he was a little grumbly about it because it was "a sex thing" but he also knew in his head that a cancer prevention was a cancer prevention. He died from cancer just a couple years later btw so you know, fuck cancer.
But now you can get it so young and even older and boys and girls so I do wish pretty much everyone who could get it would. I'm so happy that I have some protection. I just wish the guys my age had that option too.
Also if anyone is curious the muscle reactions were because they shouldn't have been giving them where they were. It just wasn't the ideal place to put them, they were literally triggering the muscle spasms by the location.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just_Another_Wookie t1_iym0vh4 wrote
You could probably still get that second shot, or both of them again. Check with your insurance, it's covered up to age ~45 by many.
Alwayssunnyinarizona t1_iym6xoj wrote
Just to circle this back to the initial comment, HPV is a DNA virus, but yes, the vaccine is effective and greatly reduces the risk of awful cancers in both men and women. I plan to have both my children vaccinated when they are old enough.
There's been decades of work on an HIV vaccine, obviously. One of the most promising a bit over a decade ago was able to stimulate antibodies quite well just like the one in the story - maybe event the one u/redrightreturning got, who knows. Sadly, it turned out that individuals who had been vaccinated were more likely to get HIV. Why?, and the perpetual problem with HIV vaccines - HIV targets white blood cells. When you vaccinate someone, you're potentially instructing the immune system to find the virus, and at the same time the virus now has a backdoor access key to get into those white blood cells (the antibodies you made with the vaccine).
Making vaccines for most viruses is not overly complicated - we have many of the tools and approaches hammered out pretty well now, but there's still areas that can be improved (targeting CD4 vs. CD8 T-cell responses for one). mRNA vaccines were the next frontier for covid, but there are other, more tried approaches that work OK too - the ChAdOx approach is pretty common, and Sinovac is as simple as it gets. One virus, a DNA virus in fact, that has been especially problematic is African swine fever. No direct concern to you or me, but one of the most economically important viruses of agriculture out there. All sorts of new tech has been tried with that virus, with mRNA vaccines under development now...but I'm not incredibly hopeful.
Some viruses, though rarely, just don't respond to any of the vaccine approaches we've come up with.
Lemon168 t1_iyko813 wrote
+1 for exposing the original antivaxxers.
pavlovs__dawg t1_iylfdie wrote
This is flawed logic. Polio is an RNA virus and is nearly eradicated. There are wayyyyyy more reasons why influenza, sars-cov-2, and HIV are challenging to vaccinate against.
m0nk37 t1_iyl9rzt wrote
Define mutates a lot, context please.
All viruses by definition mutate, a lot.
Tremere1974 t1_iylbtqv wrote
Mutate a lot in this context would mean having HIV antibodies for a single strain of HIV is as helpful as holding onto a cup of seawater while swimming in the ocean.
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That some viruses do change their genetic encoding disturbingly fast, too fast to get a complete Vaccine for every variant of a common virus out there, it means giving ammunition to those who say vaccines don't work.
m0nk37 t1_iylcqfk wrote
It makes perfect sense why its so deadly now. Considering antibodies target specific things, if it changes that fast then its understandable why the immune system cant get control.
Sorry i just never knew that about that virus. Interesting.
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