LostN3ko t1_j1rvhv8 wrote on December 26, 2022 at 10:30 PM

Reply to comment by MayorOfSmurftown in Is it possible to Live Forever? by gg2ezpzlemonsqz

Ah different than your previous suggestion. I was answering that "you" can't wake up as your clone, your clone is a separate person from you. But yes I agree I have no proof that I am the same person because we have no empirical way to judge the authenticity of an individual's personality. It is an emergent property of a system. It's not any one part of you but the synergistic effect of the combination. If you were to produce an atom for atom recreation of every part of your brain it would still not be you.

MayorOfSmurftown t1_j1sgbqr wrote on December 27, 2022 at 1:11 AM

But that's kind of my point. What's it matter if it's really "you" or the clone? You can't tell the difference. You might be being reborn every single day as a brand new entity, but from your perspective, you're still one continuous existence.

LostN3ko t1_j1vd719 wrote on December 27, 2022 at 6:04 PM

Um in which case you don't need clones if your reborn every day then congrats everyone is you and your already immortal or you can never live more than 1 day and you'll never be immortal. So either way this whole question is moot and having clones changes nothing. Not sure why this view of the self cares if clones exist or not.

MayorOfSmurftown t1_j1viij0 wrote on December 27, 2022 at 6:39 PM

"You" might have been the clone all along. Imagine you're a clone. From your perspective, you don't feel like a clone, because all of your memories are completely identical to your original.

You seem so convinced you're the real deal, but for all you know, you could wake up tomorrow in a clone body, and everything you thought you experienced today was just a copied memory.

LostN3ko t1_j1vk9fj wrote on December 27, 2022 at 6:50 PM

If I have 10 clones in a room with me there are 11 discrete individuals in the room each with their own thoughts and opinions and only one of them is you. It doesn't matter how many clones you make none of them will be you. Identical twins are clones of each other but that doesn't make either of them immortal even if they both had complete retrograde amnesia they are not immortal. You keep saying "wake up in a clone body" but that can not happen, the clone can wake up and think it is the original but it would still be it's own person. If I have 100 clones they can all believe they are the original but none of them are the original. If I woke up with only the memories of King James in my head I would still not be King James and he did not just become immortal. I feel like this point is being lost on you. Even if the self dies every night and a new self wakes it the morning with all of the memories in the bodies brain that self will still not be King James.

MayorOfSmurftown t1_j1votvw wrote on December 27, 2022 at 7:21 PM

What does it even mean to be the "original"? What's so important about that? Your cells are constantly dying and being replaced. You literally aren't physically the same person you were 5 years ago. So what is it? What makes you "you"?

Imagine a human version of the Ship of Theseus. Let's say, to make a "clone", they split your brain in half, then copy the cells from the other half of the brain to create two identical brains. Which one is the "original"? Which one is "you"?

LostN3ko t1_j1vqhxh wrote on December 27, 2022 at 7:32 PM

Before you ask me to solve a 2000 year old philosophical paradox please explain in what world view can I wake up in someone else's body.

For the purpose of this discussion we have to assume a self exists. If we don't then there is no point continuing the discussion as no one exists anymore and no amount of clones change that and immortality explicitly doesn't exist. If a self is only alive for one day again immortality no longer exists. The only philosophical realm where immortality exists is where every person has a self and that self has a timeline beginning with birth and ending with death. Immortality is a self with a birth but no foreseeable death.

Now if I have 10 clones they are all discrete individuals. They each have their own feelings thoughts sense of individuality. They are not a hive consciousness they are each a unique instance with unique selfs. Each of which dies when their body dies. Not one of them is immortal.

MayorOfSmurftown t1_j1vuf9w wrote on December 27, 2022 at 7:58 PM

What if your "self" isn't defined by physical matter like cells or atoms, but by the continuity of your memory and conscious experience?

Yes, those 10 clones are all distinct individuals after they are created, but before then, they were all essentially the same entity. From their perspective, it's as if all 10 of them started out inhabiting the same body, and at a certain point, they diverged.

LostN3ko t1_j1vwgvh wrote on December 27, 2022 at 8:12 PM

From the moment of divergence they begin to have unique experiences that make their self a different person than the others. 10 selfs. Each with their own end and none of which will be a shared experience meaning they are not the same self anymore.

Identical twins start out as one egg with a shared experience. After separating they become two selfs each unique. Identical twins are not a version of immortality.

There is a wishy washy version of immortality here but it's the same one we have always had, legacy through progeny. Your children were once part of your body, you split them off, they grew into new selfs and you passed on your memories, opinions and stories to them and they carry them forward. Offspring, pictures, movies, stories, histories, crafted materials, art and fame all fall into this psudo immortality of keeping your memory alive, a little bit of you as people like to say. None of these are true immortality where a self does not die.