Submitted by MonkeyParadiso t3_10z5k00 in Futurology

It feels to me that economists are not taking this question seriously until we get an economic shock like the 2007-2008 crash first, and that's more than a little bit concerning, no?

Edit: An Oscar Wilde essay perhaps worthy of modern reconsideration, which George Orwell criticized in the 1940s for being ahead of its time: https://files.libcom.org/files/The%20soul%20of%20man%20under%20socialism.pdf

I personally feel that corporate-hyper-capitalism centers power, status & wealth, which dominates the thinking of most executives across industries, including the Government. And although my heart yearns for a more utopian future wherein AI can truly free us as individuals from being indentured workers pursuing the arbitrary demands of our employers - to "inquire and to create" to our own tune*, to quote Wilhelm Von Homboldt (1792), my head is much more skeptical. I wonder how Dostoyevsky might outline the future to come?

*“Man never regards what he possesses as so much his own, as what he does, and the laborer who tends the garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary who enjoys its fruits. And since truly human action is that which flows from inner impulse, it seems as if all peasants and craftsmen might be elevated into artists, that is men who love their labor for its own sake, improve it by their own plastic genius and invented skill, and thereby cultivate their intellect, ennoble their character and exult and refine their pleasures, and so humanity would be ennobled by the very things which now, though beautiful in themselves, so often tend to be degraded. Freedom is undoubtedly the indispensable condition without which even the pursuits most congenial to individual human nature can never succeed in producing such salutary influences. Whatever does not spring from a man’s free choice, or is only the result of instruction and guidance, does not enter into his very being but remains alien to his true nature. He does not perform it with truly human energies, but merely with mechanical exactness. And if a man acts in a mechanical way, reacting to external demands or instruction, rather than in ways determined by his own interests and energies and power, we may admire what he does, but we despise what he is.”

2

Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

BassoeG t1_j82l3mi wrote

Civil war. One side is robotics company executives and their robotic armies. The other is either governments who’ve been taken over by populists advocating unprofitable ideas like taxing robot labor for a BGI, mandating hiring of humans despite increased cost and decreased efficiency, butlerian jihad, etc, or if governments prove resistant to populism, generalized revolts.

6

Iffykindofguy t1_j8it62i wrote

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM taxing "robot labor" is not at all like the rest of those things.

1

Poly_and_RA t1_j83ti32 wrote

This problem arise because "work" currently serves two distinct and entirely unrelated purposes:

  1. It serves as a mechanism for getting stuff done. All the products and services that humanity needs must be produced somehow; currently the main mechanism for this is that people work.
  2. It serves as the primary mechanism for distributing income to most adults.

Let's say increased automatization means we can get the same products and services made using only half as many working hours.

If that simply meant your working-day would now be 4 hours per day, for the same pay, I doubt many would complain about it all that much; higher productivity is awesome!

But the problem is, odds are it'll instead result in half the workers being fired and losing their income, while the other half continues for roughly the same pay as today, the benefits of increased productivity go mostly solely to the "owners".

And ownership is a LOT more unevenly distributed than capacity to work is. That's especially true for low-educatiion-needed work.

Let me put it this way; nobody is 10 times as efficient as the average adult at picking strawberries, driving a taxi, or peeling potatoes. Inequality in capacity for manual labor is real, but fairly modest. But nothing prevents one person from OWNING more than 1000 average adults. When income is predominantly distributed to owners balooning inequality is the result.

My preferred solution is to disconnect #1 and #2 above. Not in the sense of doing away with work, but in the sense of having it no longer be the sole realistic source of income for most adults.

We could for example create an UBI -- and set it at a certain percentage of GDP/capita. Doing it that way has the advantage that progress in productivity will benefit everyone in a given country. It could be financed with taxes, primarily on the owning-class, but also on things that have negative externalities in accordance with classical capitalist theory for how to create efficient markets.

4

MonkeyParadiso OP t1_j864ahb wrote

Interesting argument. Yes, it would be helpful to look at pre-capitalist societies to understand how people managed to live without their vocational incomes being defined as their primary raison d'etre for living.

But if we take your argument further, wouldnt these "Owners" just lawyer up and prevent their market advantages from being diluted? Societies can have massive income inequality and still exist; we've been doing it for melania. Economists couldn't even pass the Tobin Tax on financial speculation, how can you have any faith that something much more substantial could now have any chance of being instituted?

1

[deleted] t1_j8207p8 wrote

For the most part it will be a slow enough process to modernize each industry that you won't have this all at once kind of scenario. It will be more like a steady flow of change, not so much multiple industries facing significant job losses at the same time. At least not until you have general purpose labor robots.

The way automation will change the economy will be much bigger than just 2008. The 2008 crash really only lasted like a year and got better steadily. It was a lot of fear mongering and consumer getting scared for no reason more than a legit economic problem.

That does tell me though, consumer confidence is the single most important metric in economics and I'd say every other metric together barely even compares in importance.

Long term the value of money and all assets produced with labor have to go down to re-adjust to the new much lower labor rates of robots. At some point this means your house and other assets have to decrease in value because they are significantly easier to re-build new than when you bought them.

Money is mostly a metric that measures labor. It's not real value, it's a measure of the value of labor... so without economic intervention even the value of money itself should decline.

I think this EVENTUALLY leads to the scenario where money just doesn't hold as much importance in society because everything is so much cheaper it just doesn't matter as much. What matters is how good your robots are and how many you have as a nation and eventually how available they are the general public. I suspect an open source robotic labor industry will spring up eventually and even robots will make robots, meaning even the robots won't be worth much in normal terms of value.

Really very little stays worth much beside land, because that's one of the few things you can't just have robots build more.

The transition to get that point where unemployment might keep building up faster than new jobs get invented will be the worst part. After that the costs of things will be declining and make the whole lack of jobs things a lot easier to deal with.

Beyond that the hardest thing here is just humans figure out what to do with all their spare time since working 8 hours a day is mostly a waste of time at that point.

We will invent SO MANY dumb jobs it will be funny, but even with that I think a lot of people will have to work much fewer hours per week if they work at all and most assets will lose so much value that keeping the standard of living up will be easier than it seems, even without everyone needing jobs.

3

d3d_m8 t1_j84howk wrote

My only contrarian point would be that money isn't a metric that measures labor - money is the translation of perceived value which can pretty much mean anything.

I see your point that with it potentially being extremely cheap to build housing that costs might come down but that's extremely dependent on so many other variables.

Either way I'm excited for the future, there are so many good things that can come out of this that it's not even funny. (I understand that the same goes for bad, but focusing on one or the other is going to affect your mindset in that specific way)

2

thebazzle t1_j82z33c wrote

When do you foresee this happening? In what kind of time span?

1

Million2026 t1_j82ay6v wrote

People like being with other people generally. We will just have a more people focused service economy where people skills will be most important.

2

MonkeyParadiso OP t1_j864fu4 wrote

This is not work; this is play.

1

Million2026 t1_j864q8v wrote

Half a companies employees are court jesters these days whose job is to entertain or make others feel smart and give the illusion they are doing value add work. Humans need drama and camaraderie and to shoot the shit with other people to make them feel good about what they are doing. This is what people will continue doing as employees.

1

TheL0ngGame t1_j84nd3m wrote

Poverty management as a service. Simple solution. Lol. Repurposing of the human being as a data commodity and data producer instead of a physical labour commodity.

The ai/machine learning layer needs data. The more data, the more magical tricks the ai can do. Thus the more services can be provided. In order to get that data, the human being becomes a data commodity and powers the world in that way. You are their to be extracted from. Very very simple.

The more magical tricks the ai can do, the more the world can be powered by ai. Thus less wealth is trickled down to the average person through wages. And the greater the wealth that is retained by those who own these system.

People still power the world, just in another way.

1

SuperbHuman t1_j85xfa9 wrote

Exactly what was done when computers replaced humans

1

supra661 t1_j81solh wrote

Ask chatGPT. It had some interesting answers when I posed a similar question to it about a month ago.

0

TheSensibleTurk t1_j81qnuz wrote

A healthy economy needs consumers who are able to purchase products and services.

It is not in the interest of big business to shoot itself in the foot. Profit is the driving factor behind innovation. You can't profit if you don't have customers.

−2

[deleted] t1_j820nxh wrote

That's the old way of thinking when labor wasn't automated. With automated labor you just need more robots and AI to drive innovation, not profit to drive innovation.

The other half of automation people overlook is that everything that can be made with automation starts to decrease in value, which winds up being almost all products and commodities, because most products and commodities main cost is labor.

So you wind up with the cost of living being a fraction of what it is today and money itself becomes worth much less because it's not as important to buy commodities and labor with anymore so it doesn't represent what it used to.

You still need some tweaks to your economic system and you have to get used to the idea your house and car and assets are all effectively much easier to replicate now and thus worth much less.

So I say the upside to managing that transition is that it will cost less than ever to have people not working and we can invent a lot of jobs that just wouldn't be even remotely cost effective.. if that's the route peple want to go to feel more normalized.

The downside is humans learn too slow and human behavior will be the biggest obstacle of the future.. which is the same main problem as every year. ;)

7

MonkeyParadiso OP t1_j866mih wrote

Consumption is used in the expense formula to calculate GDP.

I think corporations can just lay off people, and profit by having greater profit margins distributed between less employees and shareholders.

The government would lose if Consumption falls due to Tax revenue loss. But that too could be overcome if they just start cutting G expenditures and letting unemployed people at the margins just die out. It's not like we do a great job with our homeless population now, even though we have more food than we need to feed everyone AND greater aggregate wealth than the world has ever seen - like 300% per average person in the 1970s, in the West.

The environment is already quite stressed by the massive load of people on the planet, so there are environmental benefits to be had by reducing the global human population.

Also, people are going to be able to live longer, and I don't know how that's going to get paid for, unless we let people go.

It's an interesting argument, but I'm skeptical 🧐

1

TheSensibleTurk t1_j86fzwc wrote

Why not just skip the extra steps and utilize an industrial scale liquidation program then? Not like it hasn't been tried before. What do you think? Random lottery? Oldest person or the firstborn of every household? Or some kind of an aptitude test and a certain percentage of those who fail get "let go?" Genetic screening to favor those with the least amount of inheritable disease genes? /s

1

MonkeyParadiso OP t1_j885tus wrote

No, I don't think that's necessary. Just say in America, we pick ourselves up by our own bootstraps, this is not a welfare state.. Adam Smith.. QEd. And go on with your merry way. We're already doing it and it's scalable :) Starving, disconnected social outcasts don't make for good revolutionaries; I believe it's all already codified in the Rules for Rulers Playbook

1

TheSensibleTurk t1_j886atf wrote

America very much is a welfare state. You don't even need to be a citizen to qualify for a variety of aid programs. As we saw in the SOTU speech, the otherwise fiscally conservative GOP balks at the prospect of cutting social security or sunsetting other welfare programs.

1

MonkeyParadiso OP t1_j8csldu wrote

I can't argue with the trillions of $$$ spent on the bailouts of 2008 and corporate subsidies before & since.

1

TheSecretAgenda t1_j820zkt wrote

Providing customers will be the other guy's problem until everyone automates. I then expect the business owners to wake up and say, "Wah Hoppen".

0