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AnAquaticOwl t1_j1odhfa wrote

Reply to comment by GalacticShonen in [Image] I sure do want to be a symphony🎼🎶🎵🎶 by mantasmark

That's an oversimplification. John Cage argued that music could be defined as sound organized in time, which would imply that someone was deliberately organizing it but what about naturally occurring music (birds for example)? Does it need to be organized deliberately by a human?

What about artists who record random sounds from the environment and use that as a composition? Cabaret Voltaire used to record the sounds of the construction site across the street from their studio, NWW's Soliliquy for Lilith is composed of a feedback glitch, and Einstuerzende Neubauten's Steh Auf Berlin begins with the sound of a jackhammer to give a few examples.

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GalacticShonen t1_j1ofqb9 wrote

It totally is a simplification but its a framework that works. Birds making the sound are still an "artist", or specifically from a cognitive science perspective, an agent that produces or modifies the stimulus.

Those artists using random sounds are still an agent putting intention into a stimulus through its presentation.

There doesn't need to be a separation between "artist" and "audience" either. By observing a stimulus, you yourself modify the perception of the stimulus through a psychological phenomena known as predictive processing.

One of my research areas is in music psychology, just my 2 cents. Definitely an interesting discussion

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Feynmanprinciple t1_j1ozb83 wrote

I recall seeing an interview from a shakuhachi master about his approach to playing, and John cage was among the audience. The monk spoke about there only ever being one sound, and playing the shakuhachi helped one realize this. One of the musicians asked what the sound was, and the shakuhachi master clapped his hands and said 'that was it'.

I believe John cage got his inspiration for 4'33 from the komuso tradition, and music students have been joking about it between themselves ever since. But if you actually check out suizen it's a well explored form of meditation.

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_mach t1_j1ov5xr wrote

> John Cage argued that music could be defined as sound organized in time, which would imply that someone was deliberately organizing it but what about naturally occurring music (birds for example)? Does it need to be organized deliberately by a human?

Did John Cage mention "human" though? You seem to shift the goal post there.

>What about artists who record random sounds from the environment and use that as a composition? Cabaret Voltaire used to record the sounds of the construction site across the street from their studio, NWW's Soliliquy for Lilith is composed of a feedback glitch, and Einstuerzende Neubauten's Steh Auf Berlin begins with the sound of a jackhammer to give a few examples.

there's nothing random about those sounds, though - they were clearly organized into appearing at a specific point, in a specific context.

The Nurse with Wound example is interesting, but it's literally noise organised in time...

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AnAquaticOwl t1_j1prykw wrote

The other user mentioned humans. "For sound or "noise" to be "music" you need an artist (intention of stimulus)"

"there's nothing random about those sounds, though - they were clearly organized into appearing at a specific point, in a specific context."

Sort of. A construction site is indeed just random noise...but what if I individually recorded each machine - a jackhammer, an excavator, men yelling, a dude with a rivet gun - and assembled them myself into the sounds of a busy construction site? It's *exactly* the same as a random site you might pass on the street but now it was assembled with intention. Is one just random noise and one noise music?

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"The Nurse with Wound example is interesting, but it's literally noise organised in time..."

But it's mostly organized by sheer chance. Sure Steve is controlling the effects pedal to change the oscillations, but he's not creating the sound. Coil made heavy use of random, unpredictable glitches in their music too (they even had a word for it - Elph).

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Boyd Rice's last album was just four long, unchanging tones.

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