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umlcat t1_j8ml80u wrote

Or "the world will give you it's own version", if you are not clear of your own version...

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you_always_do t1_j8o1nes wrote

That’s how I interpreted the quote

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rock_gremlin t1_j8obxkg wrote

Yeah I think that's the point of the quote. You better decide who you are and be clear about it or else the "choice" will go to others

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albertbeauchard t1_j8p9orq wrote

There is another interpretation, a little more difficult, but I think it yields much better results. There’s a gatha by Huineng that breaks away from the traditional thinking in Zen, where when applied here would sound something like if there is no one to ask who you are how can it tell you who you are? This can be varied a few different ways, but they all get to the same point. Any attempt to not be defined by the world is in itself a way to be defined by the world. It’s a double bind, regardless of choice it has the same outcome. The way out is not that simple.

The quote make a good appeal to us, but deep down does not really achieve much. It does serve a good starting point.

https://iep.utm.edu/huineng/

https://i.imgur.com/rJMqSKC.jpg

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PersonOfInternets t1_j8q1l65 wrote

I thought this was razor sharp obvious. Figured we'd be talking about the repercussions lol

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Awesam t1_j8p0lfa wrote

plot twist: in the end, everyone's a lil bitch just dying and shit

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wanderer1999 t1_j8o5yi7 wrote

Then again, some say free will is an illusion. I used to think we all have complete agency, but in reality, we are sort of guided by an invisible force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFazP2nBIqQ

https://youtu.be/iYrcZfMr2t4

Are all the decisions you have made really yours? Or was was it influenced/guided by the world anyway?

I don't mean to use this as an excuse to absolve responsibility, because we all have to bear it. What I mean is that if you can't "make it", you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. It's one less burden off of your mind. It's also a reason to be kind to other who fail through no fault of their own, because in a different universe that could be you too.

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sqt246 t1_j8oarzk wrote

It’s not an invisible force. It’s a series of logic gates. You like some shit and don’t like other shit and then make decisions to get more of what you like and less of what you don’t. Humans are basic and simple. They just like to pretend it’s complicated.

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keeldude t1_j8ok84l wrote

If you keep drilling down on the why you have certain preferences, at the very beginning of the causal chain of events, it is unlikely that choosing to do that thing or preferring that thing was the beginning of it. Evolution, nature/nurture, biology, chemistry, biophysics etc are slowly chipping away at the facade of free will. You do still own your actions because you exist physically in this universe and in your body. But without a supernatural component to the brain (which is totally fine and good to believe in, and I think it's valid and human to have opinions that can't be proved) free will in the truest sense is very unlikely. But this line of reasoning is perhaps an academic and philosophical argument which probably ought not to be inserted into your daily decision tree.

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sqt246 t1_j8pgr4l wrote

A lot of it boils down to pretty basic preferences of avoiding pain and seeking pleasure tbh. We’re just animals that pretend like they invented thinking.

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nunsaymoo t1_j8pf7g3 wrote

That's basically the correct answer. I just watched that YouTube video and was unimpressed with the xNTP philosophical debate-just-for-the-sake-of-debate bullshit.

The bottom line is that you can spend all day thinking about what you want for dinner, but ultimately, whatever you have is what it is. Maybe you coulda, woulda, shoulda chosen something else in an alternate universe, but not this one.

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nunsaymoo t1_j8pb9mn wrote

The invisible force goes by many names — God, society, the establishment, the media, the powers that be, etc.

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wanderer1999 t1_j8pf4et wrote

Correct. And even before that it's human biology, mammalian biology, then it's physics and chemistry, geography (because believe it or not geography does influence your behavior, it's where you are born, the countries around your borders...). It goes way way deep.

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nunsaymoo t1_j8pfy46 wrote

In the future, scientists will prove astrologers right all along that we're all influenced by the gravitational pull or whatever of everything in outer space.

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wanderer1999 t1_j8pkh5b wrote

Well not quite like that but i see what you mean.

We are a product of billions of years of interactions in universe. But nobody really can pinpoint exactly how something that far in the past influence our exact behaviour. It is likely the astrologers are right in that general sense, but still is completely wrong in their exact assertions.

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PersonOfInternets t1_j8q2rqd wrote

I don't usually do this but I'm gonna follow you. Actually I've never done that, maybe poppinkream or something but he had his own subreddit so who knows.

Anyway I really like how you mentally organize this in relation to the quote. We are all on a predetermined path determined by different forces converging to create this "river" of fate, only deciding your own path using your sentience will allow you to deviate from it. But that's a choice (and a challenge), it's okay to just flow like water. Not everyone has the strength to swim for the shore, but we should try to enjoy the view nonetheless.

Hell, for all we know the ones who deviate could be predetermined anyway. #followthewhiterabbit

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wanderer1999 t1_j8qae5x wrote

It is nice to see someone who can see eye to eye. And thanks for the kind words, I have much more to learn myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFazP2nBIqQ

I actually got this from brilliant people like Sam Harris, Alfred Mele, Brian Greene...

Again, this is not to say that we should live with abandonment because we still have some control in our small lives. But to me this philosophy is more relaxing, like flowing in water as you say.

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