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Ok_Reference_7489 t1_j2qc5jt wrote

Reply to comment by Comfortable_End5976 in [D] life advice to relatively late bloomer ML theory researcher. by notyourregularnerd

I disagree. 27 is old to start a PhD and I think this comment is dismissive. Many people want to start a family in their 30s and buy a house. That be difficult if you are just starting your career.

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ButchOfBlaviken t1_j2qiasp wrote

Sorry, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

In Germany, it's quite common to start your PhD later and continue well into your 30s whilst starting a family etc. This is because a PhD is treated as a real job that pays reasonably well. Also because the education in Germany is quite substantial (5-6 years diplom, 3 years masters, 5-6 years PhD). In contrast to a country like UK, where you can start at 21 and be done by 24, I will always respect and rank a German PhD much much higher.

As a UK academic, having to supervise bratty kids with very little depth of knowledge has become the bane of my existence. I will always pick someone with a bit more experience if I can.

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MaikRequim t1_j2qjw76 wrote

The German Diplom doesn’t exist anymore and a Masters degree is not the next step for someone who completed a Diplom since they are considered equal. Nowadays it’s 3 years for a Bachelor‘s Degree and 2 for a Master’s. PhDs are also usually 3 years+, although I have heard that most people need more than 3 years.

I don’t disagree with the rest of your comment tho.

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ButchOfBlaviken t1_j2qke7x wrote

Agree, the diplom is being phased out. Didn't realise the master's is 2 years now. Do they not do a thesis anymore?

It's very disheartening that a 3 year PhD has become the norm. Unless you're a prodigy, you barely scratch the surface before having to write up and leave.

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TaXxER t1_j2qt0qf wrote

In the Netherlands a masters can be anything between 1 years to 3 years, depending on the field of study.

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notyourregularnerd OP t1_j2qvpba wrote

Masters in top ranked schools in Germany (my personal experience from TU Munich a top German school) in a stem course is very rigorous, students have to take multiple independent research projects to graduate. I'm taking 5 semesters to graduate in CS. Average time to graduate in my program is 6 semesters. However the minimum time you can graduate in is 4 semester (a lot of times very challenging and a rushed way to compete it).

So you're right when you said that MS in Germany takes 3 years to get done with in reality. Although the official time to do it is 2 years.

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ButchOfBlaviken t1_j2r0ldh wrote

So I think you've answered your own question. Starting a PhD at 27 in Germany is quite normal. If you're comparing yourself against UK/US graduates, all I can say is that people who make the hiring decisions definitely know and appreciate the extra experience that brings.

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mtocrat t1_j2rxj5k wrote

Fwiw, Germany has a portion of people who stay enrolled forever because it doesn't cost anything and they may have a somewhat decent job on the side that funds them. That's not the kind of person who pursues a PhD, so I wouldn't put too much stock in averages here.

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notyourregularnerd OP t1_j2s2sdg wrote

Well the department here at TUM has hard deadline of graduation in 7 semesters. And both mean and median graduation time is 6 semesters. I agree that students take on part time jobs as working students in big firms that fund them, but they don't exceed 20 hours. My analysis is that there is lot of uncertain components that you have to navigate to get your degree (independent research credits, thesis), where what constitutes as sufficient work is subjective. If it were only coursework I would also look carefully at a student who took longer time to graduate :)

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mate_classic t1_j2qzc05 wrote

Depends on the setup of the university. Mine had an 7 semester bachelor (5 semesters courses + mandatory internship + thesis) and a 3 semester master (2 semesters courses + thesis). Others have a 6/4 split but most seem to shoot for 10 semesters combined.

Three years for a PhD is really awfully short. I'm now 2,5 years in and if I'd stop now to write everything down it would look terribly half-assed.

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mtocrat t1_j2rx2aq wrote

If I remember correctly, the total time of Bachelor + Masters is supposed to be 5 years, but the split can vary. 3+2 seems typical

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