Submitted by benpinette t3_11sgnxb in Maine
Comments
KenDurf t1_jcf8mrd wrote
I’d go a step further and say its what’s best for capitalism. Best for the parents would still be later start times, we just have to be at work by then.
UhaRugger1 t1_jcfif5k wrote
Yup. I was able to work 1-2 jobs in high school due to our early start time. It was 7:30am and we got out at 1:50pm.
_GeoffreyLebowski t1_jcfhtkj wrote
There is also tons of research that says that elementary school age kids need a lot of sleep (9-11 hrs).
I am all for having the high schools start later, but many schools do that at the expense of having the elementary schools start earlier, which I do not support at all.
Azr431 t1_jcfa214 wrote
Yup
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcen9kr wrote
That’s a weird statement since in most school districts the elementary schools start later than the high school, so clearly they aren’t trying to make it easier for adults and screw over kids.
Right_In_The_Tits t1_jceycl6 wrote
That is the case for a lot of elementary schools for some reason. OP was talking about high school, which is why he wrote:
high school hours are based on what adults want and not what is in the best developmental interest of adolescents
That statement is true for high school hours.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcf014a wrote
How is this what adults want? There are just as many adults in elementary school and yet they haven’t changed the times to suit their wants?
Literallydead_1 t1_jcf0feq wrote
It isn't because the adults just don't want to get up early. There is a lot more to it in regard to high school ages, including adults wanting them to be in school earlier to get out earlier and.... big surprise, here it comes... work! I'm actually surprised we haven't changed times of younger children, too, since the U.S. seems to be cool with child labor more than ever these days. Anywaysssss
Addendum: I think it's great when teens start working here and there. I'm just not okay with the mindset that we are sculpting our future into nothing but 9 to 5ers and not addressing mental health status, teaching them how to actually live outside of a work environment, and paying them way cheaper wages just because we can get away with it easier since they are younger. When I saw we, I mean the people who actually benefit from the lower-middle class workers. Which aren't the workers themselves, unfortunately.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcf1a0p wrote
Except that’s not the main reason anymore the main reasons are bussing and school sports. The same busses are used for younger and older kids. Earlier times for younger kids has more of an effect on parents who need to actively get those kids on busses. That’s much harder with a younger kid at 630am than it is at 8am. And school sports need earlier dismissals to allow practice and games.
Literallydead_1 t1_jcf1fyt wrote
Okay, whatever you say lol. Why would you even ask?
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfaiuj wrote
Because I thought you might have had a rational reason not “child labor”,. A quick google search tells me that less than 20% of high schoolers have pet time jobs, so that’s obviously the devious reasons we start high schools early, to capitalize on less than a quarter of the students
Literallydead_1 t1_jcfbzr6 wrote
Your quick Google search hasn't done you well. Lemme see that source. I suggest taking much more time out in your research, especially if you are a parent raising our future generation. It's our responsibility to be on top of these things. I also suggest some sociology courses and possible some psych and oral communication because you didn't even set yourself up for a good battle, man.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfu0et wrote
I love when dog moms tell me how to parent, it’s chef kiss
Literallydead_1 t1_jcfu3og wrote
Uh what? Lol are you okay? Did you just creep and see I have a dog and assume I have no children haha wth. I don't put my children's photos online. When I creep you I just see masses of downvotes on all your comments. Do some reflecting.
[deleted] t1_jcg444n wrote
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Literallydead_1 t1_jcg504x wrote
Thanks, I was like what the hell. I don't even use other social media because I don't like posting my kids. Not to put anyone down that does, I just have anxiety issues in general so it's just best for me.
In regard to your other comment: I also know so many people from my old high-school that literally either dropped out or were being negatively impacted at school due to the exhaustion of working everyday AFTER going to school. It's a sad, sad thing when one of the richest nations in the world has CHILDREN giving up living their lives and having a proper education and overall healthy development because their household cannot afford to live unless they help. The dog mom hater can miss me with it.
[deleted] t1_jcg5dhe wrote
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Literallydead_1 t1_jcg6htx wrote
Definitely agree on both. Esp the YouTube videos and child labor but as a parent maybe it makes me more aggressive because I brought my kids into this world. Also, I do have a few friends that have a small group of "friends" and have everything set to private. I understand that having an acct makes it easier. I try not to judge other parents when it comes to the smaller disagreements when we have so much more to worry about, ya know, like child labor.
[deleted] t1_jcg4116 wrote
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macesta11 t1_jcea0s9 wrote
Yes. Yes. For god's sake, yes! It's been know for at least 49 years that this should be a thing, and yet, it still isn't!!!!
And parents, your high schooler should learn to be independent! You keep on working and let the kiddo fend for themselves!
Soccermom233 t1_jcg7lup wrote
Work would be offended
4rastapasta2 t1_jcf818u wrote
Sounds good until you have a disabled child that isn't capable. Or any child that isn't capable. Not every teen can thrive or even survive without supervision.
PGids t1_jcfamsz wrote
Anyone with three braincells can infer that the other commenter wasn’t trying to insinuate you should leave a physically or developmentally disabled teenager to their own devices
4rastapasta2 t1_jcflf0r wrote
Schools have to accommodate everyone's needs, not just the able.
Shotgunsamurai42 t1_jcfml7m wrote
And the schools have a legal obligation to do that.
4rastapasta2 t1_jcfnt3f wrote
Exactly. Starting later also doesn't account for the fact that they would essentially need to double the amount of busses and drivers because the busses wouldn't be able to do high schools first then middle and elementary students. While also only paying thkse drivers for one trip making bus driver and even less desirable job.
Chimpbot t1_jcfl49k wrote
No system can completely accommodate absolutely every single unique situation or set of circumstances.
Shotgunsamurai42 t1_jcfmnb3 wrote
and yet they are required to.
DidDunMegasploded t1_jcfhxu2 wrote
I mean you're right, 100%, but...methinks OC might be aware of that. They were speaking generally.
macesta11 t1_jcgmanp wrote
Of course, you are correct. I guess I was speaking to those that can self supervise, and should. Absolutely understand that there are those who cannot.
jazzcanary t1_jcezlra wrote
Yes. I advocated for it as a school board member. I was told it would interfere with sports. I could not overcome that argument on my own.
By the way, a lot of the Maine kids I met were working, too.
Azr431 t1_jcfai2x wrote
Clearly, sports are more important than the intellectual, physical, emotional, and social development of a human
jazzcanary t1_jcfkv4t wrote
That was how I heard and saw it many times.
WillOTheWind t1_jcg3ee3 wrote
Sports are an important aspect of many children's physical, emotional, and social development.
Azr431 t1_jcg48u0 wrote
I don't disagree, but physiological and educational needs take priority over sports. Sports are an added benefit to development.
xavyre t1_jcgidvi wrote
Hello fellow school board member. I was also told we needed the local technical center to agree and all the sending towns.
Beautiful-Elephant34 t1_jcgrut2 wrote
F*cking sports. I liked playing sports, but I wasn’t good enough to make it on a team.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfb79u wrote
Less than 20% have part time jobs, but I’m sure your arbitrary observation was more accurate than data
jazzcanary t1_jcfleno wrote
True, entirely anecdotal, as I thought using the phrase "that I met," would indicate. I also suspect there are kids working for family businesses or taking care of younger kids in their family after school. They are not tired from screen time.
fastIamnot t1_jcfa6yz wrote
It never made sense to have little kids start later than high school kids. Little kids wake up earlier naturally. Getting them on the bus earlier makes it easier for parents to leave for work instead of sending them to daycare for a half an hour. High school students can get themselves on the bus after parents leave for work. The whole thing is just bass ackwards.
vestafell t1_jcfjrdr wrote
They should both start early. No room for laziness!
dan-theman t1_jce7x4k wrote
Yes, there is no learning happening at 8am for too many students. I almost didn’t graduate because the only time they offered senior English was first thing in the morning.
gutprof t1_jce1m0c wrote
Yes. I recommend students here start high school when they are about 21 years old.
Right_In_The_Tits t1_jceyei6 wrote
So what are they supposed to do from ages 15 to 21?
lantech t1_jcez9q0 wrote
recess
Right_In_The_Tits t1_jcf114c wrote
Fuck yes
Tightlines68 t1_jcfx2fd wrote
Work on the farm
RitaPoole56 t1_jcf4dm3 wrote
I taught in Portsmouth NH when the superintendent floated the idea of swapping start times elementary (k-5) early and 6-12 to start late. Many teacher friends who lived in town were excited as it meant their child could be dropped off at their elementary school and ride the bus to our middle school.
When the "shift" actually happened it turned out that due to bus costs ALL kids went later so that benefit was gone. The only one other nearby school that also made the shift Oyster River HS (in Durham NH). This meant for nearly every sport event requiring travel or not student athletes were dismissed early and missed their last class of the day (at least).
The so-called benefit of having sleep schedules match up with school times never happened as parents of lids those ages didn’t step up (shocker!) and attempt to get their kids asleep at the same times as prior.
If a kid normally stayed up until midnight now they stayed up until 1am for example, often much later. That and the fact that the overwhelming majority of kids that age had access to the internet 24/7 and had that access in their rooms meant that unless the parent physically removed the phone, computer, iWatch, etc from their "child" and shut down their home router their kid was awake late into the night. Even when the kid went to sleep "on time" it often did t matter when a less monitored/ dutiful child texted them at 2am and got them up for gaming!
I can attest that the number of kids who formerly showed up sleep deprived never changed that status. I’m convinced the whole shift only happened as a result of the superintendent's PhD thesis needed some data (I hope I’m wrong).
Bottom line, if parents aren’t willing to help their tween/teen make responsible decisions regarding rest and sleep needs, any shift in school start times is a joke.
mjcoelho12 t1_jcfryj2 wrote
> The so-called benefit of having sleep schedules match up with school times never happened as parents of lids those ages didn’t step up (shocker!) and attempt to get their kids asleep at the same times as prior.
That is interesting as research has shown the opposite. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau6200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4824552/
fatalrugburn t1_jcfx9wh wrote
This idea has been floated many times since I was in HS. And it's interesting to hear the real world example. It's not that there may not be some benefits specifically to teenagers. But I admit that I've always wondered what the actual impact of the change would be. As if once you made the switch teenagers would all of a sudden come into school bright eyed and well adjusted. Not still like the hormonal maniacs they are, just an hour later.
Skippyandjif t1_jcefczl wrote
Yes!!! When I was in high school it started at 7:40am. Like…we lived up the street from school and I still had to get up hella early so I could shower and give my hair enough time to dry enough that it wouldn’t freeze on my way to school. I don’t even know when I’d have needed to wake up if I lived farther away!
Kids and teenagers need more sleep, it’s kinda cruel to force them to get up early just because of some arbitrary puritan-era stupidity about “early risers are morally superior”.
Jim_from_snowy_river t1_jcfctyg wrote
Yes but I'm not convinced later start times will mean that kids get more sleep. What I've noticed tends to happen is with later start times kids stay up later. Well I think we really need to do for a lot of kids is to schedule fewer things for them to do after school a lot of kids have so much crap to do and enforce early bedtime.
DidDunMegasploded t1_jce07fp wrote
Yes. I'm a night owl, I've been a night owl for over a decade now, waking up in the morning is absolute hell in a handbasket for me. Manageable, but my speed, my smarts and my memory all take a massive blow.
The amount of times I nearly fell asleep in class because I've had to get up at 5:30 in the morning is astounding. I slept in and missed the bus so many times and from there I was fucked because 1) my mother refused to drive me or call me out as absent and 2) I wasn't allowed to walk to school even though it was 15 minutes away from my house, so all I could do was just...stay home and miss school.
Relatedly, I once had to get up super early to shadow a friend of mine in a college class. Ended up falling asleep at least twice during the lecture because I was just that damn tired. I had no clue how college students did it but fuck if I didn't think they were troopers.
So yeah. Let the kids go to school later, Janet. It won't kill you.
Chimpbot t1_jcflpdl wrote
>Relatedly, I once had to get up super early to shadow a friend of mine in a college class. Ended up falling asleep at least twice during the lecture because I was just that damn tired. I had no clue how college students did it but fuck if I didn't think they were troopers.
It helps that, generally speaking, a lot of college students live on campus. It's easier to roll out of bed 20 minutes before class than it is to commute.
WillingSetting t1_jcetyt3 wrote
I don’t think the start time really matters when compared to the atrocious sleep schedules of most of the students in the state… if you’re up until 3/4 on a screen the 7:30 start time isn’t the problem
Chimpbot t1_jcfm746 wrote
"Some people don't do things optimally, so we shouldn't bother trying to fix anything."
fauxRealzy t1_jcfbnjs wrote
Screen time is something where parents/families have more of a say. School start time is not.
NotLindyLou t1_jchd13f wrote
Biddeford High School has a late start time (doors open at 8:15, first block starts at 8:35am. The students get out at 2:50pm) and the kids still complain of being tired and not sleeping enough at night. The late start has not interfered with sports or the students ability to work.
Juggernaut_Thought t1_jcf7cuw wrote
My senior year of highschool I managed to get double free periods in the morning meaning I didn't need to physically attend a class until 11 am. Senior year also wound up being my best year performance wise and mentally. 🤔
theshoegazer t1_jcf9qsi wrote
My school would've still required you to be in homeroom at 7:20am and sit through two study halls in a row.
Tarankhoes t1_jcjxex5 wrote
I only needed English and history to graduate senior year and when I applied to be a part time student so I didn’t have to have six study hall periods the principal told me im “not the kind of student they envision for that program.” 🙃
Emp3r0r_01 t1_jcg1ts6 wrote
Child care is gonna kill that idea. 🤷♂️
BackItUpWithLinks t1_jcgvmj1 wrote
Childcare and sports.
Emp3r0r_01 t1_jcgxhhv wrote
True, true!
figment1979 t1_jcf5zb1 wrote
I'm loving all the "it was good enough for me, it's good enough for my kids" comments here.
Like yeah, just because we all suffered through the wrong thing means our kids should too? If we have the opportunity to treat our kids better than we were, we should take it. Every.single.damn.time.
eljefino t1_jchbd9v wrote
Human circadian rhythms are approx 25 hours long per day. At some point we need to get the next generation on board with living on a schedule, which includes being disciplined enough to go to bed on time.
bigtencopy t1_jcfa5xv wrote
10-2 should be the school day, My mind was good for about 4 hours.
vestafell t1_jcfjw5c wrote
8-5 like a normal person!
Mental focus requires training and discipline. It doesn't come naturally!
MikoTheMighty t1_jcjzgf0 wrote
Most jobs generally don't involve learning new information, every day, having take-home off-the-clock assignments, and then being tested on it. Even in a job with a lot of novelty, it still isn't comparable to the sheer amount of information you're being asked to learn at school where you're also expected to be a generalist and not a specialist.
I'm currently in a masters program while working a fulltime 8-5. Even just taking one course at a time (instead of a half dozen different topics) school still requires far more of my mental energy than my job, and I spend much more time at my job.
A lot of research has already shown that grown adults at 8-5 jobs experience a drop-off in ability to focus after several straight hours. I don't think it's realistic to expect better outcomes for kids being taught for 8 hours every day.
vestafell t1_jckgwhi wrote
>A lot of research has already shown that grown adults at 8-5 jobs experience a drop-off in ability to focus after several straight hours. I don't think it's realistic to expect better outcomes for kids being taught for 8 hours every day.
Maybe it's because they weren't trained from a young age to adapt to those kinds of routines.
And not just straight classroom hours, but also socializing time, club time, sports time, lunch time, quiet time.
Most high-achieving high schoolers already do what is essentially 8-5, if not more. Mandating it for everyone will bridge the gap in achievement and alleviate social inequality in the long run.
bigtencopy t1_jcfl6dn wrote
I would have hung myself from the Southern Aroostook basketball hoop if it was 8-5
vestafell t1_jcftpsu wrote
Not suggesting 8-5 constant classes! Maybe a long lunch break with time for socializing and sports mixed in during the school day
bigtencopy t1_jcfx5by wrote
That sounds so terrible.
vestafell t1_jcfyq2s wrote
I mean, that's what adults deal with sooner or later
bigtencopy t1_jcfzdvl wrote
Sure, but why make kids lives even shittier? Let them enjoy being a kid before hell starts for them. My goal was to be at skill as little as possible and I turned out great. Have also never worked a 9-5
mxservice t1_jcky9ko wrote
We should have them in cubicles, factories, or pumping gas by 8th grade. Might as well get them accustomed to it.
Mor_Ericks28 t1_jceuane wrote
All schools should stop conditioning kids to sit in offices all day. 730-3 isn’t a reality for most anymore
arclight222 t1_jcf15ts wrote
In our district they did push back start times in the last ten years. Warning: Old man rant! I used to walk the half mile to catch the bus before 5:30 and then face a 90 minute+ ride.
countofbluecars t1_jcf3goi wrote
I think the less the state mandates for local schools, the better. See: Florida
TristanDuboisOLG t1_jcf82kl wrote
As someone that lived with 2 high school teachers for 10y+, later start times don’t make sense. Lots of people argue that with later start times will make students ready to learn because they’ll have more sleep and be ready for classes.
As someone that had college classes in the afternoon, most people simply stay up later and offset whatever benefits they would have seen in the first place. I’ve seen it in schools as well. If they do move the start time back, you may also see pushback from parents that can’t afford to stick around in the morning to make sure the kids actually make it to school. Part of what made COVID hard was the amount of pushback parents gave from remote learning. Lots of the outbreaks happened when parents were angry that the kids were home all the time and not being babysat a the schools. So, they yelled at the school board, kids went back, kids got sick again, kids went home.
There will be pushback for pushing start times back and I don’t think you’ll see the value you think you will.
FITM-K t1_jcfg981 wrote
> most people simply stay up later and offset whatever benefits they would have seen in the first place
Yes, I'm sure none of the studies on this subject ever considered this...
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfbftm wrote
Shhh they don’t want to hear this, they just want to point to the study that says “optimal learning” and ignore all other factors
TristanDuboisOLG t1_jcfbu92 wrote
“I choose to believe my own statistics even though correlation /= causation”
See this all the time.
determania t1_jcfgckj wrote
The research showing the benefit of later start times is pretty overwhelming. I think you may be the one choosing to believe your own “statistics” here.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcftrk8 wrote
But we are pointing out all the realities of the situation that make also factor into the equation. A later start time would improve their learning, but learning is not currently failing so you then need to say what would be the cost of this incremental adjustment, and that’s where all of these other points come in. Then it’s a cost benefit of “is this incremental improvement worth getting rid of school sports, screwing up bussing etc” to which we are saying no it’s not worth it. No one is arguing with the premise of the data we are arguing whether the implementation is worth it
determania t1_jcfving wrote
The comment I was responding to was just straight up accusing people in favor of later start times of misinterpretation of studies which is a bad argument imo. You are making a completely different bad argument here. Sports are good for kids, but I cannot agree that they should take preference over learning. Bussing is an issue, but to act like it can’t be solved and kids have to start school unreasonably early just strikes me as a lazy argument.
MonsterByDay t1_jcfsfrq wrote
I think it’s non issue. The lack of sleep is avoidable by going to bed earlier. Going to bed later would - likewise - make for less sleep.
If the school day shifted later, so would all the after school activities that keep them from getting sleep. They’d just have less daylight after school.
As a teacher, I’d personally rather have a 9-5 schedule than 7:30-3:30. But I don’t think it would have the effect on students that people think it would.
Summer school starts later. Kids still show up later and complain that they didn’t get enough sleep. They’re just going to be at 3 instead of 1.
tailoredteflon t1_jcg4ayf wrote
I remember getting up at 5:30am as a kid and having to be on the bus at 6:10 for an hour and thirty minute bus ride. I work in construction now and nothing comes close to the shittiness of waiting for the bus in the pitch black mornings of winter.
sjm294 t1_jcep0oz wrote
Yes
Rambler9154 t1_jcepwve wrote
Yeah, itd benefit their sleep schedules, plus just safety. Many have to stand at pitch black bus stops for part of the year, at their age without parents around likely, maybe a flashlight from their phone. Thats dangerous, someone could easily kidnap the kid. Itd be much safer if they started at like 7 or even 8:30 in the morning
MathematicianGlum880 t1_jcf1txz wrote
We started at 7am when I was in high school. Although we also got out at 1:20 or thereabouts.
TyBo75 t1_jcf3xay wrote
Our schools are 730-2pm and I would be happy with 830-3pm and think the sports impact would be pretty minimal.
Regarding the night owl, laissez faire - IMHO as a parent of two HS’s, teens need boundaries and need sleep, and they will fight you about both.
shopgirl56 t1_jcf7e5x wrote
Yes - weve known for decades that we should - will we? Nope - our country's only concerns start & end with the rich. Wish everyone would vote
rectumish t1_jcfayr5 wrote
in short yes!
ProfessorMandark t1_jcfhrql wrote
I would be happy if they did this in elementary school as well.
Amdy_vill t1_jcfkpjz wrote
We should fallow the data, elementary school should stay the same middle school should be pushed back an hour and highschool should be pushed back 2 hours. If we want our kids to do thier best we would do that.
But the reality is school is a glorified daycare. Most parents don't care and just want to pawn off thier kids cares. Not caring about thier education. And sadly that's alot of teachers options too.
MDLTG t1_jcg2nch wrote
In our district, high/middle school starting at 8:30 means pre-K-4 starts at 7:30, due to the busing, and the little kids would be out by 2 — the day/aftercare situation would be a bit of a nightmare. It's doable, but it's disruptive.
Every educator in Maine knows about the research. There aren't any evil supers or school boards who think to themselves, "we know highschoolers work better later, but screw them! Har!"
Rather, people are looking at hour-long bus runs, no drivers available, sports schedules, extra-curricular schedules, daycare issues, staffing issues, etc., and doing the best they can to balance all the scales.
Maybe 8:30 works for your district! Great! But to make this a statewide law seems to run counter to everything we've ever said about local control of our school systems. To act like you just care more about high schoolers than those dastardly education professionals and school boards is a bit over the top, in my opinion.
Are the underpinnings of our schedule rooted in capitalism and what's best for the economy? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean there aren't good reasons for the decisions that local school boards have made. Unless you're also going to wholesale change the rest of society, maybe let's not make this a law.
How about provide some incentives for districts looking to do it?
k_babz t1_jcg4n9c wrote
i think we could start later and still let them out same time. kids spend too much time in school, and its time to dismantle this capitalist hellscape - lets start with schools.
BackItUpWithLinks t1_jcgvkui wrote
Wtf kind of gymnastics are you doing to tie those together?
Maine is in the bottom half for education. You’re proud of that and think it would be better to be worse?
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/best-states-for-education
awhol01 t1_jci633i wrote
How will that work for parents and how will that prepare them for real jobs for the real world? Most of the world doesn't work 9-5. Working jobs start much earlier.
Lerch737 t1_jcfdk39 wrote
Nope. High school prepares these kids for the real world. High School starts at say 10am.... then they will have to transition starting at 10am to say 8am for work.
WorldWideDarts t1_jcfn3sa wrote
Later? Why not earlier? We've fallen so far behind compared to other countries I think we need to step our game up a bit.
ZingZongZaddy t1_jcf9iry wrote
Why do we even need high school when they can just learn from tiktok?
NotLindyLou t1_jchdjde wrote
Hahaha! Spoken like a teacher!
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcen3cr wrote
I get the sleep pattern things but there are other considerations, school sports being the main one, especially in Maine where kids are traveling pretty far distances for games.
figment1979 t1_jceoh31 wrote
It shouldn't be the "tail wagging the dog" though - sports shouldn't be the primary concern in this issue, it should be what is ideal for students to learn, because that's what they go to school to do in the first place.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcev4bk wrote
Yea if you were going to create school out of nothing it would be the correct choice. But now you have other considerations like sports that are culturally just as important.
Right_In_The_Tits t1_jceyglt wrote
> culturally just as important.
That's part of the problem.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcf05iw wrote
It’s the reality. In the us we have school sports. To have school sports you need time in the afternoon which means an earlier start. Your argument refuses to acknowledge reality based on a single factor.
figment1979 t1_jcf17q4 wrote
I’m so sorry that “single factor” happens to be the most important one - kids actually learning things. How inconvenient, I know.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfa8hx wrote
Do kids not learn now? I missed where huge percentages of kids are leaving Maine schools without graduating or not going on to excellent colleges and careers. We balance everything in life. Does the data show that “optimal” education would include a later time? Sure. It doesn’t show the counter factual tho that no kid can succeed in the current system, it’s just not the most optimal. But the data also shows well rounded kids are more successful, so the system takes that in to consideration
figment1979 t1_jcfcr8n wrote
So we should just ignore “optimal” and aim for “convenient”?
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfuagy wrote
We should decide the cost benefit for incremental increases. What do we lose when we improve the system a small amount. Is it worth losing school sports to increase individuals focus a few percentage points? I don’t think so, not when we haven’t maxed out non structural improvements such as higher teacher wages, smaller class sizes, more technology etc.
thesilversverker t1_jcf7lc6 wrote
Why not do sports before school? Early start for sports, school at 9. If it's important, your kid will get up early, and kids who want to prioritize learning can do that.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfaz8b wrote
You clearly didn’t play sports in Maine in high school. Teams travel 1-2 hours for games. Your point is exactly the same point against the data- those who want to prioritize learning will do so regardless as to whether it’s a little harder because their bodies clocks aren’t aligned to the system. Kids succeed now, they go on to great schools etc. we could make it more optimal with a different time start but we would lose other aspects, like school sports, that are important parts of their growth. Instead we ask them to work a little harder to overcome the time issue and most do very well.
thesilversverker t1_jcfgau7 wrote
School sports arent important for their growth, and they are clearly less important for the student body than academics. You're suggesting its good to make learning harder, because sports kids and parents dont want to bother with any effort.
Why not make the volunteers (athletes) put the extra work in, rather than everyone?
I also did sports, but it's absurd to suggest those are a valid reason to disadvantage 95% of the student body
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcfuyde wrote
It’s cost benefit. A 2018 study on this found a 4.5% increase in grades between early and later starting times. We aren’t talking huge changes here. I would think that as a culture we see school sports as at least a 5% net positive or growth for adolescents.
thesilversverker t1_jcfwpeg wrote
> I would think that as a culture we see school sports as at least a 5% net positive or growth for adolescents.
I think you're right on this, as far as cultural perceived benefits.
Proving that our populace is bad at math, and should have played fewer sports.
50k in sports, 175k total students. We should disregard the minority interest, sports would need to be like a 17% bump to break even.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcg2pbl wrote
But if we are saying that at best a later start is going to net us only a 5% increase in scores, which is what data shows, is that worth all the structural changes we would need to make to Get there when we haven’t fully made all possible changes within the current system such as more teachers, more technology etc?
wormpussy t1_jcg9hm3 wrote
A 5% increase in scores across the state of Maine would be a huge benefit to our communities, if people like you didn’t keep holding these poor kids back intellectually then we could probably snowball it into a higher percentage. Why do you see an issue with a more educated population?
sussesemmel t1_jcewpup wrote
I don't know why this is getting downvoted, sports schedules are an actual reason for school start times.
Sixfeatsmall05 t1_jcf086t wrote
Because they’re either kids that want to sleep more or adults who didnt play sports in high school.
fauxRealzy t1_jcfc3g4 wrote
I played sports in high school. A world is possible where sports plays second fiddle to education, rather than the other way around.
eljefino t1_jceounw wrote
I start my first shift adult job at 0630 because it uses the most available daylight. School should be the same way, so sports, particularly winter sports, have some hope of being performed by sunset.
Having high school start early gets kids ready for the real world. Adults in a household should be considerate and stop making noise after 8pm and the kids should go to bed when tired, and not stay up with their phones under the blankets playing on instagram.
kelly04555 t1_jcewoy8 wrote
No. What happens when you graduate and start work or college ?
fauxRealzy t1_jcfbrjs wrote
I don't know, what happens?
idkfgt t1_jcfcznf wrote
Bet you never went to college, half of the classes only start at 10am at the earliest.
fredezz t1_jce44g6 wrote
I'll bet ya they stay up an hour later
Mor_Ericks28 t1_jceuj3k wrote
So what if they do? What’s wrong with kids who aren’t already conditioned to work in some lame office 8 hours a day? If they can do all their learning from 9-2, what’s the difference? From what I have experienced, teachers do very little instruction at the hs level. It’s more about maintaining order and teaching to standardized tests
ZingZongZaddy t1_jcf9fed wrote
You went to a shitty high school then.
vlakreeh t1_jcfas6i wrote
The reality is that shitty high schools are becoming (or already) the norm. At my highschool in the late 2010s there were a ton of teachers who phoned it in and did little but going off of a packet, and when you have the problem of teachers getting shit pay and shitty working conditions all over the country you're only going to make that problem worse.
wormpussy t1_jcg8k1u wrote
The downfall started in the 60s thanks to the boomers, just been going down hill since then, just like everything else they touch.
fredezz t1_jcfjk41 wrote
You must be referring to yourself
Jakezilla4190 t1_jcf30a1 wrote
No. We all survived it’s not that bad to get up a little early. Soft af
vlakreeh t1_jcfb05g wrote
Just because an older generation "survived" something that was objectively bad for adolescent development doesn't mean we should subject future generations to it.
fauxRealzy t1_jcfc6ad wrote
Ah yes, my favorite big brain argument: I did it, so you have to, too.
Jakezilla4190 t1_jcfqu3b wrote
Okay that is a bad arguing point fair, but it’s just waking up early.. it’s not like kids have to run marathons the second they wake up. Also, it’s not unrealistic times. Real life won’t adjust hours just because you’re a little sleepy.
IamSauerKraut t1_jcdxy0n wrote
No.
Yourbubblestink t1_jcdpmiv wrote
The truth is that high school hours are based on what adults want and not what is in the best developmental interest of adolescents.
There is a ton of research pointing to the benefits of later starts and other accommodations to promote teen learning.