The truth is that high school hours are based on what adults want and not what is in the best developmental interest of adolescents.

There is a ton of research pointing to the benefits of later starts and other accommodations to promote teen learning.

No.

Yes. I'm a night owl, I've been a night owl for over a decade now, waking up in the morning is absolute hell in a handbasket for me. Manageable, but my speed, my smarts and my memory all take a massive blow.

The amount of times I nearly fell asleep in class because I've had to get up at 5:30 in the morning is astounding. I slept in and missed the bus so many times and from there I was fucked because 1) my mother refused to drive me or call me out as absent and 2) I wasn't allowed to walk to school even though it was 15 minutes away from my house, so all I could do was just...stay home and miss school.

Relatedly, I once had to get up super early to shadow a friend of mine in a college class. Ended up falling asleep at least twice during the lecture because I was just that damn tired. I had no clue how college students did it but fuck if I didn't think they were troopers.

So yeah. Let the kids go to school later, Janet. It won't kill you.

Yes. I recommend students here start high school when they are about 21 years old.

I'll bet ya they stay up an hour later

Yes, there is no learning happening at 8am for too many students. I almost didn’t graduate because the only time they offered senior English was first thing in the morning.

Yes. Yes. For god's sake, yes! It's been know for at least 49 years that this should be a thing, and yet, it still isn't!!!!

And parents, your high schooler should learn to be independent! You keep on working and let the kiddo fend for themselves!

Yes!!! When I was in high school it started at 7:40am. Like…we lived up the street from school and I still had to get up hella early so I could shower and give my hair enough time to dry enough that it wouldn’t freeze on my way to school. I don’t even know when I’d have needed to wake up if I lived farther away!

Kids and teenagers need more sleep, it’s kinda cruel to force them to get up early just because of some arbitrary puritan-era stupidity about “early risers are morally superior”.

I get the sleep pattern things but there are other considerations, school sports being the main one, especially in Maine where kids are traveling pretty far distances for games.

That’s a weird statement since in most school districts the elementary schools start later than the high school, so clearly they aren’t trying to make it easier for adults and screw over kids.

It shouldn't be the "tail wagging the dog" though - sports shouldn't be the primary concern in this issue, it should be what is ideal for students to learn, because that's what they go to school to do in the first place.

I start my first shift adult job at 0630 because it uses the most available daylight. School should be the same way, so sports, particularly winter sports, have some hope of being performed by sunset.

Having high school start early gets kids ready for the real world. Adults in a household should be considerate and stop making noise after 8pm and the kids should go to bed when tired, and not stay up with their phones under the blankets playing on instagram.

Yes

Yeah, itd benefit their sleep schedules, plus just safety. Many have to stand at pitch black bus stops for part of the year, at their age without parents around likely, maybe a flashlight from their phone. Thats dangerous, someone could easily kidnap the kid. Itd be much safer if they started at like 7 or even 8:30 in the morning

I don’t think the start time really matters when compared to the atrocious sleep schedules of most of the students in the state… if you’re up until 3/4 on a screen the 7:30 start time isn’t the problem

All schools should stop conditioning kids to sit in offices all day. 730-3 isn’t a reality for most anymore

So what if they do? What’s wrong with kids who aren’t already conditioned to work in some lame office 8 hours a day? If they can do all their learning from 9-2, what’s the difference? From what I have experienced, teachers do very little instruction at the hs level. It’s more about maintaining order and teaching to standardized tests

Yea if you were going to create school out of nothing it would be the correct choice. But now you have other considerations like sports that are culturally just as important.

No. What happens when you graduate and start work or college ?

I don't know why this is getting downvoted, sports schedules are an actual reason for school start times.

That is the case for a lot of elementary schools for some reason. OP was talking about high school, which is why he wrote:

high school hours are based on what adults want and not what is in the best developmental interest of adolescents

That statement is true for high school hours.

So what are they supposed to do from ages 15 to 21?

> culturally just as important.

That's part of the problem.

recess

Yes. I advocated for it as a school board member. I was told it would interfere with sports. I could not overcome that argument on my own.

By the way, a lot of the Maine kids I met were working, too.

How is this what adults want? There are just as many adults in elementary school and yet they haven’t changed the times to suit their wants?

It’s the reality. In the us we have school sports. To have school sports you need time in the afternoon which means an earlier start. Your argument refuses to acknowledge reality based on a single factor.

Because they’re either kids that want to sleep more or adults who didnt play sports in high school.

It isn't because the adults just don't want to get up early. There is a lot more to it in regard to high school ages, including adults wanting them to be in school earlier to get out earlier and.... big surprise, here it comes... work! I'm actually surprised we haven't changed times of younger children, too, since the U.S. seems to be cool with child labor more than ever these days. Anywaysssss

Addendum: I think it's great when teens start working here and there. I'm just not okay with the mindset that we are sculpting our future into nothing but 9 to 5ers and not addressing mental health status, teaching them how to actually live outside of a work environment, and paying them way cheaper wages just because we can get away with it easier since they are younger. When I saw we, I mean the people who actually benefit from the lower-middle class workers. Which aren't the workers themselves, unfortunately.

Fuck yes

In our district they did push back start times in the last ten years. Warning: Old man rant! I used to walk the half mile to catch the bus before 5:30 and then face a 90 minute+ ride.

I’m so sorry that “single factor” happens to be the most important one - kids actually learning things. How inconvenient, I know.

Except that’s not the main reason anymore the main reasons are bussing and school sports. The same busses are used for younger and older kids. Earlier times for younger kids has more of an effect on parents who need to actively get those kids on busses. That’s much harder with a younger kid at 630am than it is at 8am. And school sports need earlier dismissals to allow practice and games.

Okay, whatever you say lol. Why would you even ask?

We started at 7am when I was in high school. Although we also got out at 1:20 or thereabouts.

No. We all survived it’s not that bad to get up a little early. Soft af

I think the less the state mandates for local schools, the better. See: Florida

Our schools are 730-2pm and I would be happy with 830-3pm and think the sports impact would be pretty minimal.

Regarding the night owl, laissez faire - IMHO as a parent of two HS’s, teens need boundaries and need sleep, and they will fight you about both.

I taught in Portsmouth NH when the superintendent floated the idea of swapping start times elementary (k-5) early and 6-12 to start late. Many teacher friends who lived in town were excited as it meant their child could be dropped off at their elementary school and ride the bus to our middle school.

When the "shift" actually happened it turned out that due to bus costs ALL kids went later so that benefit was gone. The only one other nearby school that also made the shift Oyster River HS (in Durham NH). This meant for nearly every sport event requiring travel or not student athletes were dismissed early and missed their last class of the day (at least).

The so-called benefit of having sleep schedules match up with school times never happened as parents of lids those ages didn’t step up (shocker!) and attempt to get their kids asleep at the same times as prior.
If a kid normally stayed up until midnight now they stayed up until 1am for example, often much later. That and the fact that the overwhelming majority of kids that age had access to the internet 24/7 and had that access in their rooms meant that unless the parent physically removed the phone, computer, iWatch, etc from their "child" and shut down their home router their kid was awake late into the night. Even when the kid went to sleep "on time" it often did t matter when a less monitored/ dutiful child texted them at 2am and got them up for gaming!

I can attest that the number of kids who formerly showed up sleep deprived never changed that status. I’m convinced the whole shift only happened as a result of the superintendent's PhD thesis needed some data (I hope I’m wrong).

Bottom line, if parents aren’t willing to help their tween/teen make responsible decisions regarding rest and sleep needs, any shift in school start times is a joke.

I'm loving all the "it was good enough for me, it's good enough for my kids" comments here.

Like yeah, just because we all suffered through the wrong thing means our kids should too? If we have the opportunity to treat our kids better than we were, we should take it. Every.single.damn.time.

My senior year of highschool I managed to get double free periods in the morning meaning I didn't need to physically attend a class until 11 am. Senior year also wound up being my best year performance wise and mentally. 🤔

Yes - weve known for decades that we should - will we? Nope - our country's only concerns start & end with the rich. Wish everyone would vote

Why not do sports before school? Early start for sports, school at 9. If it's important, your kid will get up early, and kids who want to prioritize learning can do that.

Sounds good until you have a disabled child that isn't capable. Or any child that isn't capable. Not every teen can thrive or even survive without supervision.

As someone that lived with 2 high school teachers for 10y+, later start times don’t make sense. Lots of people argue that with later start times will make students ready to learn because they’ll have more sleep and be ready for classes.

As someone that had college classes in the afternoon, most people simply stay up later and offset whatever benefits they would have seen in the first place. I’ve seen it in schools as well. If they do move the start time back, you may also see pushback from parents that can’t afford to stick around in the morning to make sure the kids actually make it to school. Part of what made COVID hard was the amount of pushback parents gave from remote learning. Lots of the outbreaks happened when parents were angry that the kids were home all the time and not being babysat a the schools. So, they yelled at the school board, kids went back, kids got sick again, kids went home.

There will be pushback for pushing start times back and I don’t think you’ll see the value you think you will.

I’d go a step further and say its what’s best for capitalism. Best for the parents would still be later start times, we just have to be at work by then.

You went to a shitty high school then.

Why do we even need high school when they can just learn from tiktok?

My school would've still required you to be in homeroom at 7:20am and sit through two study halls in a row.

Yup

10-2 should be the school day, My mind was good for about 4 hours.

It never made sense to have little kids start later than high school kids. Little kids wake up earlier naturally. Getting them on the bus earlier makes it easier for parents to leave for work instead of sending them to daycare for a half an hour. High school students can get themselves on the bus after parents leave for work. The whole thing is just bass ackwards.

Do kids not learn now? I missed where huge percentages of kids are leaving Maine schools without graduating or not going on to excellent colleges and careers. We balance everything in life. Does the data show that “optimal” education would include a later time? Sure. It doesn’t show the counter factual tho that no kid can succeed in the current system, it’s just not the most optimal. But the data also shows well rounded kids are more successful, so the system takes that in to consideration

Clearly, sports are more important than the intellectual, physical, emotional, and social development of a human

Because I thought you might have had a rational reason not “child labor”,. A quick google search tells me that less than 20% of high schoolers have pet time jobs, so that’s obviously the devious reasons we start high schools early, to capitalize on less than a quarter of the students

Anyone with three braincells can infer that the other commenter wasn’t trying to insinuate you should leave a physically or developmentally disabled teenager to their own devices

The reality is that shitty high schools are becoming (or already) the norm. At my highschool in the late 2010s there were a ton of teachers who phoned it in and did little but going off of a packet, and when you have the problem of teachers getting shit pay and shitty working conditions all over the country you're only going to make that problem worse.

in short yes!

You clearly didn’t play sports in Maine in high school. Teams travel 1-2 hours for games. Your point is exactly the same point against the data- those who want to prioritize learning will do so regardless as to whether it’s a little harder because their bodies clocks aren’t aligned to the system. Kids succeed now, they go on to great schools etc. we could make it more optimal with a different time start but we would lose other aspects, like school sports, that are important parts of their growth. Instead we ask them to work a little harder to overcome the time issue and most do very well.

Just because an older generation "survived" something that was objectively bad for adolescent development doesn't mean we should subject future generations to it.

Less than 20% have part time jobs, but I’m sure your arbitrary observation was more accurate than data

Shhh they don’t want to hear this, they just want to point to the study that says “optimal learning” and ignore all other factors

Screen time is something where parents/families have more of a say. School start time is not.

I don't know, what happens?

“I choose to believe my own statistics even though correlation /= causation”

See this all the time.

Your quick Google search hasn't done you well. Lemme see that source. I suggest taking much more time out in your research, especially if you are a parent raising our future generation. It's our responsibility to be on top of these things. I also suggest some sociology courses and possible some psych and oral communication because you didn't even set yourself up for a good battle, man.

I played sports in high school. A world is possible where sports plays second fiddle to education, rather than the other way around.

Ah yes, my favorite big brain argument: I did it, so you have to, too.

So we should just ignore “optimal” and aim for “convenient”?

Yes but I'm not convinced later start times will mean that kids get more sleep. What I've noticed tends to happen is with later start times kids stay up later. Well I think we really need to do for a lot of kids is to schedule fewer things for them to do after school a lot of kids have so much crap to do and enforce early bedtime.

Bet you never went to college, half of the classes only start at 10am at the earliest.

Nope. High school prepares these kids for the real world. High School starts at say 10am.... then they will have to transition starting at 10am to say 8am for work.

> most people simply stay up later and offset whatever benefits they would have seen in the first place

Yes, I'm sure none of the studies on this subject ever considered this...

School sports arent important for their growth, and they are clearly less important for the student body than academics. You're suggesting its good to make learning harder, because sports kids and parents dont want to bother with any effort.

Why not make the volunteers (athletes) put the extra work in, rather than everyone?

I also did sports, but it's absurd to suggest those are a valid reason to disadvantage 95% of the student body

The research showing the benefit of later start times is pretty overwhelming. I think you may be the one choosing to believe your own “statistics” here.

I would be happy if they did this in elementary school as well.

There is also tons of research that says that elementary school age kids need a lot of sleep (9-11 hrs).

I am all for having the high schools start later, but many schools do that at the expense of having the elementary schools start earlier, which I do not support at all.

I mean you're right, 100%, but...methinks OC might be aware of that. They were speaking generally.

Yup. I was able to work 1-2 jobs in high school due to our early start time. It was 7:30am and we got out at 1:50pm.

You must be referring to yourself

They should both start early. No room for laziness!

8-5 like a normal person!

Mental focus requires training and discipline. It doesn't come naturally!

We should fallow the data, elementary school should stay the same middle school should be pushed back an hour and highschool should be pushed back 2 hours. If we want our kids to do thier best we would do that.

But the reality is school is a glorified daycare. Most parents don't care and just want to pawn off thier kids cares. Not caring about thier education. And sadly that's alot of teachers options too.

That was how I heard and saw it many times.

No system can completely accommodate absolutely every single unique situation or set of circumstances.

I would have hung myself from the Southern Aroostook basketball hoop if it was 8-5

True, entirely anecdotal, as I thought using the phrase "that I met," would indicate. I also suspect there are kids working for family businesses or taking care of younger kids in their family after school. They are not tired from screen time.

Schools have to accommodate everyone's needs, not just the able.

>Relatedly, I once had to get up super early to shadow a friend of mine in a college class. Ended up falling asleep at least twice during the lecture because I was just that damn tired. I had no clue how college students did it but fuck if I didn't think they were troopers.

It helps that, generally speaking, a lot of college students live on campus. It's easier to roll out of bed 20 minutes before class than it is to commute.

"Some people don't do things optimally, so we shouldn't bother trying to fix anything."

And the schools have a legal obligation to do that.

and yet they are required to.

Later? Why not earlier? We've fallen so far behind compared to other countries I think we need to step our game up a bit.

Exactly. Starting later also doesn't account for the fact that they would essentially need to double the amount of busses and drivers because the busses wouldn't be able to do high schools first then middle and elementary students. While also only paying thkse drivers for one trip making bus driver and even less desirable job.

Okay that is a bad arguing point fair, but it’s just waking up early.. it’s not like kids have to run marathons the second they wake up. Also, it’s not unrealistic times. Real life won’t adjust hours just because you’re a little sleepy.

> The so-called benefit of having sleep schedules match up with school times never happened as parents of lids those ages didn’t step up (shocker!) and attempt to get their kids asleep at the same times as prior.

That is interesting as research has shown the opposite. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau6200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4824552/

I think it’s non issue. The lack of sleep is avoidable by going to bed earlier. Going to bed later would - likewise - make for less sleep.

If the school day shifted later, so would all the after school activities that keep them from getting sleep. They’d just have less daylight after school.

As a teacher, I’d personally rather have a 9-5 schedule than 7:30-3:30. But I don’t think it would have the effect on students that people think it would.

Summer school starts later. Kids still show up later and complain that they didn’t get enough sleep. They’re just going to be at 3 instead of 1.

Not suggesting 8-5 constant classes! Maybe a long lunch break with time for socializing and sports mixed in during the school day

But we are pointing out all the realities of the situation that make also factor into the equation. A later start time would improve their learning, but learning is not currently failing so you then need to say what would be the cost of this incremental adjustment, and that’s where all of these other points come in. Then it’s a cost benefit of “is this incremental improvement worth getting rid of school sports, screwing up bussing etc” to which we are saying no it’s not worth it. No one is arguing with the premise of the data we are arguing whether the implementation is worth it

I love when dog moms tell me how to parent, it’s chef kiss

Uh what? Lol are you okay? Did you just creep and see I have a dog and assume I have no children haha wth. I don't put my children's photos online. When I creep you I just see masses of downvotes on all your comments. Do some reflecting.

We should decide the cost benefit for incremental increases. What do we lose when we improve the system a small amount. Is it worth losing school sports to increase individuals focus a few percentage points? I don’t think so, not when we haven’t maxed out non structural improvements such as higher teacher wages, smaller class sizes, more technology etc.

It’s cost benefit. A 2018 study on this found a 4.5% increase in grades between early and later starting times. We aren’t talking huge changes here. I would think that as a culture we see school sports as at least a 5% net positive or growth for adolescents.

The comment I was responding to was just straight up accusing people in favor of later start times of misinterpretation of studies which is a bad argument imo. You are making a completely different bad argument here. Sports are good for kids, but I cannot agree that they should take preference over learning. Bussing is an issue, but to act like it can’t be solved and kids have to start school unreasonably early just strikes me as a lazy argument.

> I would think that as a culture we see school sports as at least a 5% net positive or growth for adolescents.

I think you're right on this, as far as cultural perceived benefits.

Proving that our populace is bad at math, and should have played fewer sports.

50k in sports, 175k total students. We should disregard the minority interest, sports would need to be like a 17% bump to break even.

Work on the farm

That sounds so terrible.

This idea has been floated many times since I was in HS. And it's interesting to hear the real world example. It's not that there may not be some benefits specifically to teenagers. But I admit that I've always wondered what the actual impact of the change would be. As if once you made the switch teenagers would all of a sudden come into school bright eyed and well adjusted. Not still like the hormonal maniacs they are, just an hour later.

I mean, that's what adults deal with sooner or later

Sure, but why make kids lives even shittier? Let them enjoy being a kid before hell starts for them. My goal was to be at skill as little as possible and I turned out great. Have also never worked a 9-5

Child care is gonna kill that idea. 🤷‍♂️

In our district, high/middle school starting at 8:30 means pre-K-4 starts at 7:30, due to the busing, and the little kids would be out by 2 — the day/aftercare situation would be a bit of a nightmare. It's doable, but it's disruptive.

Every educator in Maine knows about the research. There aren't any evil supers or school boards who think to themselves, "we know highschoolers work better later, but screw them! Har!"

Rather, people are looking at hour-long bus runs, no drivers available, sports schedules, extra-curricular schedules, daycare issues, staffing issues, etc., and doing the best they can to balance all the scales.

Maybe 8:30 works for your district! Great! But to make this a statewide law seems to run counter to everything we've ever said about local control of our school systems. To act like you just care more about high schoolers than those dastardly education professionals and school boards is a bit over the top, in my opinion.

Are the underpinnings of our schedule rooted in capitalism and what's best for the economy? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean there aren't good reasons for the decisions that local school boards have made. Unless you're also going to wholesale change the rest of society, maybe let's not make this a law.

How about provide some incentives for districts looking to do it?

But if we are saying that at best a later start is going to net us only a 5% increase in scores, which is what data shows, is that worth all the structural changes we would need to make to Get there when we haven’t fully made all possible changes within the current system such as more teachers, more technology etc?

Sports are an important aspect of many children's physical, emotional, and social development.

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I don't disagree, but physiological and educational needs take priority over sports. Sports are an added benefit to development.

I remember getting up at 5:30am as a kid and having to be on the bus at 6:10 for an hour and thirty minute bus ride. I work in construction now and nothing comes close to the shittiness of waiting for the bus in the pitch black mornings of winter.

i think we could start later and still let them out same time. kids spend too much time in school, and its time to dismantle this capitalist hellscape - lets start with schools.

Thanks, I was like what the hell. I don't even use other social media because I don't like posting my kids. Not to put anyone down that does, I just have anxiety issues in general so it's just best for me.

In regard to your other comment: I also know so many people from my old high-school that literally either dropped out or were being negatively impacted at school due to the exhaustion of working everyday AFTER going to school. It's a sad, sad thing when one of the richest nations in the world has CHILDREN giving up living their lives and having a proper education and overall healthy development because their household cannot afford to live unless they help. The dog mom hater can miss me with it.

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Definitely agree on both. Esp the YouTube videos and child labor but as a parent maybe it makes me more aggressive because I brought my kids into this world. Also, I do have a few friends that have a small group of "friends" and have everything set to private. I understand that having an acct makes it easier. I try not to judge other parents when it comes to the smaller disagreements when we have so much more to worry about, ya know, like child labor.

Work would be offended

The downfall started in the 60s thanks to the boomers, just been going down hill since then, just like everything else they touch.

A 5% increase in scores across the state of Maine would be a huge benefit to our communities, if people like you didn’t keep holding these poor kids back intellectually then we could probably snowball it into a higher percentage. Why do you see an issue with a more educated population?

Hello fellow school board member. I was also told we needed the local technical center to agree and all the sending towns.

Of course, you are correct. I guess I was speaking to those that can self supervise, and should. Absolutely understand that there are those who cannot.

F*cking sports. I liked playing sports, but I wasn’t good enough to make it on a team.

Wtf kind of gymnastics are you doing to tie those together?

Maine is in the bottom half for education. You’re proud of that and think it would be better to be worse?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/best-states-for-education

Childcare and sports.

True, true!

Human circadian rhythms are approx 25 hours long per day. At some point we need to get the next generation on board with living on a schedule, which includes being disciplined enough to go to bed on time.

Biddeford High School has a late start time (doors open at 8:15, first block starts at 8:35am. The students get out at 2:50pm) and the kids still complain of being tired and not sleeping enough at night. The late start has not interfered with sports or the students ability to work.

Hahaha! Spoken like a teacher!

How will that work for parents and how will that prepare them for real jobs for the real world? Most of the world doesn't work 9-5. Working jobs start much earlier.

I only needed English and history to graduate senior year and when I applied to be a part time student so I didn’t have to have six study hall periods the principal told me im “not the kind of student they envision for that program.” 🙃

Most jobs generally don't involve learning new information, every day, having take-home off-the-clock assignments, and then being tested on it. Even in a job with a lot of novelty, it still isn't comparable to the sheer amount of information you're being asked to learn at school where you're also expected to be a generalist and not a specialist.

I'm currently in a masters program while working a fulltime 8-5. Even just taking one course at a time (instead of a half dozen different topics) school still requires far more of my mental energy than my job, and I spend much more time at my job.

A lot of research has already shown that grown adults at 8-5 jobs experience a drop-off in ability to focus after several straight hours. I don't think it's realistic to expect better outcomes for kids being taught for 8 hours every day.

>A lot of research has already shown that grown adults at 8-5 jobs experience a drop-off in ability to focus after several straight hours. I don't think it's realistic to expect better outcomes for kids being taught for 8 hours every day.

Maybe it's because they weren't trained from a young age to adapt to those kinds of routines.

And not just straight classroom hours, but also socializing time, club time, sports time, lunch time, quiet time.

Most high-achieving high schoolers already do what is essentially 8-5, if not more. Mandating it for everyone will bridge the gap in achievement and alleviate social inequality in the long run.

We should have them in cubicles, factories, or pumping gas by 8th grade. Might as well get them accustomed to it.