Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixllepw wrote

Sorry for ignorant question, I'm just curious. Japanese language has over 1000 hieroglyphs, Chinese has over 50000. How do you deal with typing on everyday basis? How many symbols do you really need to talk or type an article?

3

day_li_ly t1_ixlo63l wrote

I use Pinyin (i.e. a romanization standard of Chinese characters) to type in an IME (input method environment). The IME suggests characters and words with that romanization from its database, which I can then select.

An average native Chinese speaker knows anywhere between 3000 and 8000 Chinese characters. For daily communication, 3000 is more than enough.

8

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixlpbxn wrote

Oh, that's interesting to know, thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the topic!

[went googling IME]

1

day_li_ly t1_ixlqhsp wrote

Just found out it's not input method environment but instead input method editor. How does this name make sense??

1

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixlr0dz wrote

Haha, I think I 've dealt with less reasonable things in life.

1

concentus7 t1_ixn9bky wrote

It's a piece of software that allows you to edit your input method, pretty straight forward.

1

Captain_Crispyy t1_ixlp9j1 wrote

I cannot answer for Japanese because I don’t speak it. I do speak a bit of Chinese but I’m still learning. Chinese uses pinyin (拼音) to input characters on a computer. That means that you “build” your characters by adding lines on top of each other to form the final character. You need to type on multiple keys to build one character. Pretty much like some European languages adding accents on plain letters by pressing the accent key and then the letter. Chinese is easy to use since some words are only one character or 2. I can compare pinyin system to old phones with ABC on 1, DEF on 2 etc. After it’s muscle memory like the rest. It takes time but once you get it, you can type very fast. It’s a very simplified explanation. Look into pinyin online to dig deeper if you want to As for the amount of characters used, I think it isn’t very relevant to think that way. As opposed to latin languages and their letters, characters have a meaning alone and grouped. Each character can be used more or less frequently depending of what you are doing or what is the topic you are writing about.

Again, I’m not a native speaker but languages is my job and passion. My colleagues from China explain it that way, but it might be very simplified. Im sorry if something isn’t 100% accurate or wrongly worded. Hope this helps

Edit: typo

5

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixlqtyx wrote

Thank you for such elaborate reply!

So, pinyin is like a Lego brick: on keyboard you have a set of building blocks to form a symbol. Makes perfect sense. I'm well familiar with old school mobile phone layout (2 - ABC, 3 - DEF and so on). Once you familiarize yourself with the layout, typing becomes a second nature. The same applies to pinyin.

Again, thanks! Every day you learn something new.

1

mignyau t1_ixmween wrote

Japanese uses 3 writing systems - hiragana (think of it as the “default” system), katakana (used for loan words from other languages or onomatopoeia), and kanji (Chinese characters - used for nearly all type of words). Hiragana/katakana you can sort of think like an alphabet but each character is actually a vowel by itself or a consonant plus a vowel (eg ki, mo, ri). Building a word is just batching these guys together.

The IME takes input in hiragana (the type on the keycaps you see) and types out to hiragana by default, and detects what word you’re typing. You can then hit a key to make a drop down menu appear, so you can flip the hiragana into katakana instead or grab the correct kanji.

So for example, in default hiragana:

としょかんにいきましょう! (Let’s go to the library!)

Will turn into:

図書館に行きましょう!

The IME detects the としょかん input as meaning “library” and will provide the proper kanji 図書館 in menu. However if you wanted it in katakana for whatever reason, it will also automatically offer トショカン as an option. Likewise for いきましょう (let’s go) the core word is いき -> 行き so it’ll swap in the kanji as an option.

So unlike Chinese typing you don’t build an individual character with a list of radicals plus handy autosuggests - it goes by word!

3

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixpltef wrote

Thank you, that was useful and interesting! Will search further.

1

concentus7 t1_ixndawh wrote

u/mignyau gave a pretty good thorough explanation above, but a couple points of clarification:

hieroglyphs - The Japanese script you're likely referring to are called "kanji" and are technically considered "logographs". Hieroglyphs are a very different type of symbol.

Totals - there have been WAY more than 1,000 kanji in existence throughout the Japanese language's many years of standardizations and revisions (there is no definitive number). However, a little over 3,000 kanji are readily used in common communication nowadays.

Typing - most people typing in Japanese today use an input method called "romaji nyuuryoku" (romaji input). "Romaji" is a method of writing Japanese that uses Latin script (a,b,c's) to write out Japanese. For example, "arigatou" is the romaji writing of ありがとう. A piece of software on most Japanese computers/devices then converts the romaji into kana (Japanese phonetic script) or in some cases straight into kanji where appropriate. That's the basics of it, at least.

As with most things that you grow up doing in your life, you get used to it with enough repetition.

2

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixpm497 wrote

Thanks for explanation, I stand corrected. It's intetesting that Chinese and Japanese use similiar typing method (romanized writing).

2

IAlwaysReplyLate t1_ixnrvlz wrote

To add a historical note: before IMEs, the Japanese keyboards used hiragana or katakana, mostly one kana per key (some were shifted, eg ぁ was Shift-あ). Mostly they had a QWERTY-like layout with some extra keys, but there were several different layouts designed to be more ergonomic - the modern Esrille Nisse can emulate some of the ergonomic layouts. It's still possible to use the kana layouts with an IME, and Japanese keyboards still have the extra keys for switching between writing systems.

For kanji, at least to start with, it was really unavoidable to have a big array. The keyboards used a 9- or 12-layer system, but they were still huge, some running to over 500 keys. Here's an Alps one, with Planck for scale - there's more info and photos on Deskthority. IIRC Chinese typewriters assembled characters in the way Captain_Crispyy described.

2

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixpmdg4 wrote

Woah! Memorizing symbol placement on that keyboard might be a nightmare for foreigner. Of course, the more you use one, the better you get at it, but still... Not to mention the sheer size of that thing and the table needed to accomodate it. Thank you!

2

IAlwaysReplyLate t1_ixpsm54 wrote

Yes. Though given this one was for typesetting, probably not so many foreigners ended up using one - the normal-use computers of the time wouldn't have been able to handle kanji anyway, they had enough bother dealing with hiragana and katakana! (I also don't know how computers handled the rarer kana systems before IMEs - perhaps they just didn't.) Some Western typesetting systems had big keyboards too, often using mechanical switches or even some of the exotica like magnetic switches.

Here's a site with lots of old Japanese keyboards. NEC had column stagger long before the Ergodox!

2

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixq1zzf wrote

Xah Lee site is exactly what I was searching for! Thanks alot! Due to Google's algorithm clusterfuck policy, finding such small useful sites like this becomes increasingly difficult, especially if one doesn't know how to word the search inquiry properly.

2

IAlwaysReplyLate t1_ixq3hxs wrote

Google isn't the only search engine, you know ;) Try Qwant.com or start.duckduckgo.com, or pick a Searx implementation to combine multiple engines.

2

IAlwaysReplyLate t1_ixq57wi wrote

Oh yes, the other thing I could have mentioned is code pages - the predecessors to Unicode, specific to a language or an area. Japanese had two or three, and eventually they worked out a way of switching between them automatically... but the way they found breaks Unicode, so old web pages written for Shift-JIS can go strange if the browser thinks they're in Unicode!

2

shyrix t1_ixm4wdu wrote

i watched a typing sound test on one of the videos on youtube and was surprised to see it was a korean video, watching them on their version of monkey type was fascinating. all of these words just magically form and the typing speed seemed fast enough altho not sure how they judge. but from the sounds it definitely sounded roughly equivilent to typing 90-100wpm in english, and watching sentences form in korean. was wild.

1

PekkaJukkasson t1_ixm7px9 wrote

−1

tertius_decimus OP t1_ixpl9w8 wrote

That wasn't helpful. While we're at it, do you understand Google sucks as a search engine? The feed is driven by ads revenue rather than the relevance of the inquiry. Google is well past its prime as a choice for search.

2