When you spent 2,000$ over the last year and still haven't seen one GB arriveSubmitted by CertainlyBright t3_z5lkvv in MechanicalKeyboards
mamamarty21 t1_ixy481b wrote
The group buy business model is stupid as fuck. If designers don’t believe in their set enough to sell it outright, then maybe it isn’t good enough to sell period.
Take a fucking business loan out, run your set, sell it when it’s done.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyv6vu wrote
>The group buy business model is stupid as fuck. If designers don’t believe in their set enough to sell it outright, then maybe it isn’t good enough to sell period.
So I take it if GMK keycaps were in stock, you'd be buying loads of them, right?
> Take a fucking business loan out, run your set, sell it when it’s done.
Another clueless idiot.
Marvelm t1_ixyxlme wrote
> So I take it if GMK keycaps were in stock, you'd be buying loads of them, right?
Well duh? I'd rather buy something when it's on the shelf rather than wait 2 years for that? Must be crazy!
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyybos wrote
You miss my point. Would you actually buy them? Are you actually in the market for a $100+ keycap set?
Marvelm t1_ixyzibn wrote
Well, yeah, I bought KAT Eternal, totally lost interest in it before it arrived 1,5 years later and sold it immediately and now I'm waiting for JTK Sora since April 2021. Likely won't join another GB for that exact reason, it's just fuckin absurd. And then another option is buying from scalpers who sell 130$ sets for 300$, great.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixz0062 wrote
Why not just buy extras? Most vendors will order extras. I just picked up Striker for only slightly more than the GB price.
Get rid of group buys though, and you won't see the variety of keycaps and keyboards we have now. Most interesting stuff, especially keycaps, are designed by community members like you and I, and we can't afford to finance the production of thousands of sets of keycaps. If you rely on big business, they are risk averse. You will definitely see a reduction in variety. They will just do what can be easily demonstrated to be popular... so they copy one another.... which is why all gaming boards are the same.
Marvelm t1_ixz07n5 wrote
I mean sure, if stars align and you come across extras for exactly the set you like, then you're golden but that's not something you can bank on.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixzf8b9 wrote
Maybe not, but if you know when a set will drop, or is expected to drop, you can be ready to pounce as most vendors will have extras. Some even have planners and calendars showing expected dates for each set, and most will have a mailing list you can sign up to. This is how I knew Striker was up as an extra set at Prototypist. I'd forgotten all about it until I got an e-mail telling me. It's not a cast iron guarantee, no, but you can get most things this way if you plan it well.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy184ss wrote
>Why not just buy extras?
Extras have only recently started being priced decently at SOME vendors. Extras pricing for a lot of sets earlier to mid this year was always at $185+, and now some vendors they are finally starting to run a little lower. This is one of the reasons some people were staying away from extras and waiting on sales etc on these higher priced sets. And then there are a few vendors where extras prices are just a bit insane IMO
Extras also only recently have been more available due to vendors starting to purchase enough to not have extras sales sell out within a minute or two
QWERKey-UK t1_iy2n7g6 wrote
I can only go off what vendors in the UK charge, as if I'm buying extras, then I will obviously use a UK vendor. They've always been reasonable. You expect a mark up, as after all, the vendor has taken a risk in ordering extras... for all they knew at the time, the set may not sell well. I've not seen them as expensive as that though. If you missed a GB and really want the set though, paying another $40 or so is still better than being gouged on the aftermarket. I do see your point though, yes.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy3kb2k wrote
>paying another $40
That is the problem, at least with US vendors it didn't used to be only a $40 mark up. Its been anywhere from $65 to $80 mark ups for GMK sets on a lot of US vendors until just more recently (I have seen a particular vendor that had higher markups than that even).
I totally get there is going to be some mark up for extras, after all extras are just the vendor saying "we want x amount of sets, so that we can sell some more in case people didn't get a chance to join the GB". So they are paying for those extra sets out of their pockets, so of course there needs to be some sort of return on those sets on top of what they would already be making at GB price. Totally reasonable, its just when they are getting marked up $65 to $80 above what they sold at GB for, that is just a little bit too much. Again, not sure what the markups are over on the UK vendors, but glad that they don't seem to have been as bad as some US vendors.
retardedsquids t1_ixyd3pa wrote
I'm telling you any mizu/olivia-inspired design will sell like pancakes.
And I love me pancakes
NotSoFull-Info69 t1_ixy6x8i wrote
This is probably the least logical comment I have read in a long time
Like jeez did your brain go out for a walk?
mamamarty21 t1_ixy7z97 wrote
How is this illogical? How do you think other businesses work? They don’t go “I’m gonna sell you some coffee, but pay me first and then wait a year and a half and I’ll get it to you once I buy it with the money you gave me.” No, they buy their product with their own money, they sell it to consumers, and then they use the profits to pay themselves and reinvest into their business
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyw456 wrote
>How is this illogical?
Because you clearly have no idea about the costs of developing and manufacturing a keycap set. The people who design all these cool sets are just community members like you and I. They are not large companies. If you wanted to design a keycap set, where would you get the money from? What you don't seem to realise is that even successful group buys for keycaps only sell a couple of thousand (including extras) so the costs are high, and the risk is high. Large companies have no interest in making keycap sets that sell in such small numbers because they would also need to sell them at similar prices. This is why most cheap Chinese keycaps are clones, because the risk is lower. If you KNOW a set is really well liked, you can just make clones to sell at half the price and be fairly certain that they will sell. If you didn't know this beforehand though, it would be a very risky venture to tool up and make caps in these kinds of quantities.
Like most people who say the stuff you are saying, if I asked you to present an alternative model, you'd just say something along the lines of "just make them, and then sell them".... in fact, you pretty much have said that already. This shows that you simply do not have the experience to comment on this. Sorry.
mamamarty21 t1_ixzjagn wrote
Did I not say “take out a business loan”? In one of my posts? That is where I would get the money from if I wanted to make a set.
How many people do you think get burnt off of buying sets from having to wait way over the estimated time? I myself will NEVER EVER take part in a group buy again, and I am sure that there are others. You can’t rely on people like OP who just sink money into it with nothing to show
There are other businesses sell things in stock for hobbies that have less interest than keyboards.
If it isn’t worth the risk to make it, then it shouldn’t be made.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixzk9p0 wrote
>Did I not say “take out a business loan”?
Good luck. Any bank will expect you to have a fully fleshed out business plan. As I keep telling you, even a successful group buy set only sells a couple of thousand. Where are you going to get the evidence that convinces a bank to lend you enough money to make more than that considering that's all they seem to sell? [edit: Many barely scrape though the MOQ limit]
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>I myself will NEVER EVER take part in a group buy again
Good for you. Then just ignore group buys instead of railing against them. If you have no intention of using them again, what difference does it make to you if they exist or not?
mamamarty21 t1_ixznmwe wrote
Like I said, If it isn’t good enough to sell outright, Why bother selling in the first place?
I will shit talk group buys any chance I get because they’re stupid as fuck. They wouldn’t be half as bad if they took less than 6 months to make. It’s bad enough some runners will say “it’ll be done in 8 months” that’s a flat out lie, you won’t see them for over a year, maybe two. I’m sure someone will come along and defend the atrocious wait times too
QWERKey-UK t1_ixzr9vv wrote
>Like I said, If it isn’t good enough to sell outright, Why bother selling in the first place?
They do sell, just not in the quantities you think they do. They are a niche product. They would not sell in the quantities necessary to mass produce them. The only ones that do, are the ones that have proven to be popular over time, and these are available in stock from Drop. The only reason Drop can do this however, is because they now have the benefit of hind sight. Drop won't be commissioning new designs for in stock products. The market is too volatile, and it's almost impossible to predict what will be popular. No one knew Olivia would be as popular as it is, or Laser. It just was. The designer hit on something that people seem to like. There's no formula for this.
> I will shit talk group buys any chance I get because they’re stupid as fuck.
I know, because you won't listen to reason as to why they are necessary. You seem to think that it's all so simple: Just get the cash, and make them, right? I mean, what can be so difficult? :) I challenge you to even design a set, let alone get it made. Go on.. if it's all so simple and morons like me can't understand, surely you're in a great position to make a killing here. What's stopping you?
The wait times are awful, no one would disagree with you. This is not a fault of the group buy model itself though. It's a combination of things. Some of them are avoidable (colour issues) and some of them aren't (manufacturing capacity). The premise of the group buy model is sound though; Essentially, it is just crowd funding. It's not new, or unique to this hobby.
Your responses go beyond mere criticism though, and come across as genuine hatred. This is fine. What really baffles me is this mission you seem to be on to eradicate group buys, as if it would somehow solve a problem for you. If you hate them so much, just ignore them, and get your keycaps another way... or which there are many options available to you. It literally makes no difference to you if they exist or not. This pathological hatred you seem to display is puzzling.
mamamarty21 t1_iy0bp6i wrote
The thing that’s stopping me from designing a set is my lack of interest in doing so. Im not saying it’s easy, but I could figure it out and do it if I wanted to.
I want things to change, and if people keep getting sucked into group buys, that’ll never happen. By spending money on group buys, you’re saying that it’s okay and totally acceptable to get strung along with minimal communication for two years. It’s not okay and people need to quit thinking it is
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0c7pu wrote
>I want things to change
Obviously, but why, and how is getting rid of group buys going to achieve this change. Furthermore, what would this change be?
> Im not saying it’s easy, but I could figure it out and do it if I wanted to.
I guess we'll never know.
mamamarty21 t1_iy0hb6h wrote
Yeah, and contrary to popular belief, learning how to make 3d renders and all that just to prove a point to a random person on the internet isn’t the best use of one’s time. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0id0g wrote
There's way more to designing a keycap set than making some renders. It wasn't the reason I said that anyway. This guy thinks he has the solution, and is telling us it's easy, (just get a business loan LOL), so why doesn't he just keep quiet, and get on with revolutionising everything and make a ton of money and transform this hobby?
Because it's easy to come out with bullshit, and even believe that bullshit when you have no idea what you are talking about.
mamamarty21 t1_iy0lkou wrote
I feel like the “and all that” kinda encapsulates the “way more to it” part. Either way, doing it doesn’t interest me. I don’t have enough passion for this shit to make me want to design and produce anything. I don’t even want to do that for hobbies that I’m much much more invested in, so I’d never even think to waste my time with it. There are people that actually want to design sets and produce them though, and they are the ones that need to do something about it
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0msua wrote
>I don’t have enough passion for this shit to make me want to design and produce anything.
So in other words, you seem to be passionately arguing about something you aren't very passionate about. (shrug). Maybe you just like arguing on the internet.
​
>There are people that actually want to design sets and produce them though, and they are the ones that need to do something about it
So you are holding the designer responsible for all the things you don't like about group buys? How does that work exactly?
The more you say, the more it becomes obvious that you just don't know enough about all this to have a valid opinion.
My advice to you, is to just ignore group buys. You've still to explain how you personally would gain if they (group buys) disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow. How would you benefit? What do you suppose would change should that come to pass? Can you explain? Why don't you just ignore them instead of (obviously) being so angry about them?
Marvelm t1_ixylo7q wrote
How is this illogical?
xyxjj t1_ixynbe7 wrote
because if we stopped the group buy model it's more likely that the ya'll wont be getting the keycaps you want:
Suppose a gmk groupbuy moq to even get them to run it is 500, and suppose we're talking about a small time vendor that can only afford to buy 500 units (for simplicity in this discussion), and that the vendor will always buy 500 units per run
With a groupbuy model:
There's be X + 500 units floating around in the after market, anyone that wants a set will get a set if they're around for the group buy, so X is the number of people that bought into the groupbuy
​
With a groupbuy model:
There'd literally be only 500 sets available period. You'd then be subjected to the whims of the 500 people in the entire world that managed to get their hands on a set
​
and that's just for base kits. What about childkits like novelties, alternative mods/alphas, child kits for exotic keyboards etc? where are you gonna get keycaps for those then?
[deleted] t1_ixyphei wrote
[deleted]
Marvelm t1_ixyo033 wrote
The point is that every normal business ever FIRST produces stuff THEN sells it. Make them take a loan, get money, do whatever they have to to produce the set if they feel like it's worth it.
If the sets they produce are good, they will sell well, period and then they will get the funds to keep producing them till there is a need for them. It's not rocket science. Good products sell well, if you're confident you have a good product, get the funds, make the product and then sell it.
TimbersawDust t1_ixyzuko wrote
This is a terrible idea. Even if I take months and craft what I think is the perfect keyset, and hell even if I do an interest check and get 1000 entries, there is no guarantee of a return on investment. I’d also have to pay interest on said loan which means the cost of these sets would be higher than they are now. People who run GBs knows that they are in terrible shape right now, and they also know that the alternative is much riskier and worse for everyone. Terrible idea.
Marvelm t1_ixz02ud wrote
Excuse me, so how do you think small companies or one man craftsmanship stores or whatever else run their business?
TimbersawDust t1_ixz08w7 wrote
You are comparing apples to oranges. Running a keyset group buy is very different from anything you are suggesting. The group buy model for keysets has been around for years and has only really become a problem since lead times have gotten out of control.
Zelda2hot t1_ixz0c02 wrote
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Marvelm t1_ixz0o9l wrote
You're only saying that because you're used to it. You still haven't answered the above question. There is always risk in producing something. Going the group buy route is safe because it basically eliminates the risk for the creator because he knows upfront what the demand is.
Then you also admit it's a problem. A problem should be solved and it won't solve itself, the lead times are already absurdly long and they will only become longer and longer.
TimbersawDust t1_ixz1na5 wrote
The above question is irrelevant to this conversation my man. Since you think you are reinventing the wheel here, I’ll answer it. Small business take out business loans. That being said, if I was running a small business, and my customer were willing to pay me up front (similar to a group buy) and I didn’t need to take out a business loan, I would 100% do it. But why aren’t small businesses doing this? Because their customers won’t pay for it. In the group buy model that we have here, they do. That should tell you straight up that these two things are very different and that a solution for a small business is not going to automatically be a solution for a group buy.
Keyset designers are 100% never going to take out a business loan. It will never happen. And as I’ve said before GBs are in shambles right now, but I’m not going to advocate for something that is arguably worse.
SpunkyDred t1_ixz0b2o wrote
> apples to oranges
But you can still compare them.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixywjpq wrote
>Make them take a loan, get money, do whatever they have to to produce the set if they feel like it's worth it.
That's really easy to say when you have no intention of doing it, and are just arguing on the internet.
Marvelm t1_ixyxadm wrote
What kind of logic is that? Companies in EVERY industry work like that, big or small. Brb I'm gonna order a pair of shoes and then wait 2 years for them to be made and delivered. Sounds absurd, doesn't it?
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyyjv4 wrote
>Companies in EVERY industry work like that
No, they don't. They do massive amounts of market research, and if they did this research on the custom keycap market, they would see that it is actually very small, and very niche, and even if they did risk financing the manufacture of a custom keycap set, they would only do so on the premise that most only sell a few thousand sets... because that's a fact, if you bothered to research it.
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