Submitted by CertainlyBright t3_z5lkvv in MechanicalKeyboards
Comments
NatureAndArtifice t1_ixy1osd wrote
Agreed, but at least op is self reflecting by putting together the post, and giving other who may not a bit of a wake up call
DoILookLikeARealBoy t1_ixym48k wrote
Yeah I needed to see this. Reminds me I need to update my sheet :(
MechNoob251 t1_iy0pqhq wrote
or maybe don't join 5 gmk gbs at once
[deleted] t1_ixx4a37 wrote
$147 shipping on a $9.59 GMK set, pretty sure you've got some data in the wrong columns lol
statuscode202 t1_ixzyybu wrote
Or a problem.
zacRupnow t1_ixxlfyn wrote
Participation in group buys revokes your pass to make fun of people who buy Star Citizen ships.
LifeArt4782 t1_ixxlbau wrote
Make good choices.
PasteIIe t1_ixxrkot wrote
i legit never buy gmk keycaps unless theyre instock cos of this exact reason
also dreamscape seems to be a bit of a mess..
mediumrare_chicken t1_ixy5e18 wrote
Dreamscape is fucked. It was my first set when I boycotted GMK because of lead times. 😂 it backfired.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy16p1j wrote
Yup, sitting here waiting on Dreamscape. Absolute shit show so far lol
shubashubamogumogu t1_ixyxmmc wrote
Yeah some vendors have had some recent in-stock GMK sets for $89~$99 on sale. That’s an awesome price because that’s how much the lower priced GB sets from other manu’s cost at my local vendor.
Marvelm t1_ixz3w4n wrote
Which vendors and which sets?
fresh_yield t1_ixzu86o wrote
I know Novelkeys is having a sale on a few sets like Bento
Marvelm t1_iy0lbnm wrote
Yeah, those are cool prices unfortunately shipping to EU is absurd and I would gladly buy the Grand Prix base kit. So, great for US folks but nothing like that in EU as far as I'm aware, haven't seen any GMK sets for 99 Euro.
[deleted] t1_ixzu4jn wrote
[deleted]
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy16n58 wrote
Black Friday sales
shubashubamogumogu t1_iy20jpc wrote
Hi looks like some others already replied.
But yes one of the vendors was Novelkeys who had a flash sale a month ago.
They had many in-stock GMK sets for $99, some of these sets were Hammerhead Dark/Light, Bento, Serika, Grand Prix and that's only what commenters mentioned. Here is a link to the Flash sale post https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/w5gtgj/novelkeys_flash_sale/
I think for Black Friday Novelkeys came back with $89 sale for Serika and maybe some other sets I didn't check. That's over now but I think they are still running a $99 GMK sale and Cannonkeys also either was or still is doing something similar.
Marvelm t1_iy2b7g9 wrote
Yeah like I said, all US only.
shubashubamogumogu t1_iy2q7a3 wrote
Yeah I am outside the US myself so shipping is painful, but depending on the sale I think you can still save a decent amount compared to local vendor prices sometimes.
I recently purchased 4 in-stock Dye-sub PBT sets from the BOGO sale. Even when including shipping I ended up saving 30% over local prices.
The BOGO sale also discounts the lowest priced set, so the savings were more like 40% for those in the US not the 50% on listed prices you would expect so I thought it was worth it in the end.
soyarin t1_ixync8e wrote
What's up with dreamscape? I bought into it and have seen delays, but other than that nothing else.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy16qxh wrote
Color matching STILL hasn’t been completed. Took like 6 months for the latest round of samples to come in and they still weren’t good apparently. Not that the designer really even told the community their thoughts on the latest round.
CertainlyBright OP t1_ixz8jxk wrote
+1 i would like to be in the loop. where is my dreamscape :(
ratchet7474 t1_ixzrmge wrote
get on the vala discord server if that was your vendor. also, if you bought a luxe cable, get a refund or chargeback if he doesn't respond. The guy stopped making cables and doesn't plan to fulfill them. KBD dreamscape cables have been or will be fulfilled
CertainlyBright OP t1_ixzsqc1 wrote
WHAT
ratchet7474 t1_ixzt3wn wrote
MechNoob251 t1_iy0q7j6 wrote
dude has not been in the loop. When I join a gb I make sure I'm in that discord server before I hit buy and ask around about whatever questions I have. You can't instantly trust any gb since purchase protection is non existent in all of them no matter what you pay through.
SoftDev90 t1_ixxuh44 wrote
Well simple solution, stop doing group buys and force companies to take on the risk to create an actual in stock product instead of this crap system they got in place right now.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixywzvo wrote
> stop doing group buys and force companies to take on the risk to create an actual in stock product
Large companies don't take risks on something that historically sells so few units. GMK just make what you tell them to. They don't design anything. The people who design them are just community members like you and I. We don't have 5 figure sums of cash just lying around. Even a successful group buy for keycaps sells just a couple of thousand examples, including extras. The risk is very high, and the cost are significant.
teh_maxh t1_ixy4gy2 wrote
I wouldn't even mind if they were more like a normal pre-order system, where you might have to wait a few months. Waiting times of a year or more are unreasonable, though.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyx21w wrote
Other manufacturers are available.
Truth-Turtle t1_ixxyeq3 wrote
This is so true. I’ve entered a couple GBs myself and from time to time they even feel sketchy. Instead of allowing some people to use this system to scam others or simply take so long, we should force companies to set up a legitimate system where manufacturing these products becomes readily accessible. QwertyKeys is the Goat rn in my opinion for this exact reason.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyx7f3 wrote
>we should force companies to set up a legitimate system
Which companies are you talking about here? GMK do not sell keycaps... they make them. Who will you be forcing?
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy17642 wrote
I would assume they are talking about the vendors that the GBs are ran through
Truth-Turtle t1_iy19axb wrote
Yes, GMK makes keycaps. I don’t know too much about their manufacturing process, yet it appears they are extremely slow at producing products ran through GBs sold through many different vendors.
& by ‘legitimate system’ all I meant was a process where products such as keycaps do not take over a year to manufacture. Maybe I don’t know too much about how these products are made, like GMK’s keycaps. Maybe it does take a year to make them🤷🏻♂️ This was also not to discredit GMK, lol. I want a few of their keycap sets myself👍🏼
QWERKey-UK t1_iy2mkt4 wrote
Not all manufacturers take as long as GMK, and GMK have explained why they are having the issues they are having, and what they are doing about it. They've even posted in this sub themselves explaining. If anyone is to blame, it's vendors who keep running GBs with GMK knowing the lead times are sometimes two years or so. Even so, we all know the lead times, so if you don't want to wait for a GMK set (other manufacturers are available), then either try to get extras once they drop (but you'll still have to wait... you just won't have to pay up front), or just don't bother with group buys. There are loads of in- stock, original keycaps from other manufacturers that you can just buy right now without waiting. Anyone would think that you HAVE to have GMK keycaps (other manufacturers are available), and the wait times are something you HAVE to put up with. If you don't want to wait, don't use group buys. If you know the lead times going in, then you can't really complain about it. If group buys are delayed beyond what you were told, that can be annoying, sure, but let's be honest here, no one enters a GMK group buy and expects anything other than a wait time measured in months.... many months. I don't get it... people happily enter group buys, knowing it will take 18 months (for argument sake), then lose their shit when it takes 21 months or whatever. I mean...sure, annoying, but were they actually sat behind their front door waiting for them to arrive or something? If you enter a keycap group buy, expect a long wait. Order them, and move on. You don't WAIT for them.
If you are a newcomer to the hobby, please don't enter a group buy for something you really need. Stick to in stock stuff until you have a fair collection of boards and caps and switches, so you can at least enjoy the hobby without having to sit there staring at a calendar waiting for your precious keycaps to arrive in order to do take part.
SoftDev90 t1_ixy5t0z wrote
Yeah something has to change. Group buys are so stupid and artificially limit stock because they refuse to keep anything on hand. It's infuriating to see a cool keycap set online that I really want only to find out it was from a group buy 4 years ago and they aren't doing anymore of them. Imagine if you went into any store anywhere and they said here's an idea for a product, pay now and it will be delivered in 1 to 2 years. That shit would absolutely not fly and shouldn't in this community either. As a business take some of that money and buy some sets ahead of time and then pre-order when it's close to release time at least. Stop putting all risk on the consumer while you sit there making money as a middle man. Plenty of other ways to gauge interest in a product without the pre buy bullshit.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyxc86 wrote
>It's infuriating to see a cool keycap set online that I really want only to find out it was from a group buy 4 years ago
Then perhaps write to the designer and ask if they would consider doing another run. GMK can't sell you more. They don't have the right to do so. They belong to the designer, not GMK. GMK do not design keycaps.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy17b0f wrote
Not every designer reruns or will rerun their sets unfortunately.
QWERKey-UK t1_iy2nkui wrote
True... Many designers make a set just because they want it for themselves though, so if that's the case, you can't blame them for not wanting to go through all that again, as it's quite a stressful experience and quite a lot of work to run a GB, even though the vendor is doing the heavy lifting with regards to payments and distribution, the designer is mainly responsible for the advertising and PR for the GB. If enough people contact them though, and ask, they may realise that there's an opportunity there for them. I reckon few people consider this... simply messaging them to ask them. I often do, but if I'm one of just a handful of people doing so then it's just a drop in the ocean.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy3j7ye wrote
I can understand that reasoning, of some designers going through with sets just because they want them, but I still think if there are really popular sets that were ran before the hobby boomed due to COVID, they really should be reran. I know some have, but I can think of a good example right off the top of my head with GMK Noel. Designer came right out and said they would not do an R2 of the set, even though there are a lot of people that really like the set and would like to have it. I know there is a NicePBT version, but some people in the hobby heavily prefer ABS over PBT, and some also prefer the latin alphas the set originally ran with over the sublegend ones that are on the NicePBT set. And then not sure what the plan is on GMK Mizu, not sure if that designer plans to do another round in GMK (I know other profiles have been ran, which I do like seeing, but it would be nice to have another GMK run since some only like using cherry profile).
I get that running a GB is stressful, but IMO I feel like if you have a popular set that ran successfully already, you have a lot less stress the second time around. PR will be easier since you can just base it all off of the last run, color matching is basically non existent since the set already successfully ran, renders, kitting etc might be updated, but even if the kitting is changed up, there is still a lot less work there too. Just some of my thoughts :)
QWERKey-UK t1_iy42uuv wrote
I can't really disagree with anything you are saying, but you can't force the designer at gunpoint :) All I can imagine is that perhaps a vendor with the ability to invest in an instock version may make a deal with the designer if they are amenable to the idea, but apart from that, if the designer says no, then that's all there is to it. It's a shame, but at the end of the day, there will be lots more interesting keycap group buys, and so long as this hobby retains control of itself by using its members' creativity and the willingness to self finance and control itself, then the next Olivia, or Mizu, or Darling may be just around the corner.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy44a3e wrote
Oh for sure, can't force the designer to do anything. That doesn't mean people in the community won't have a shitty opinion of the designer for not rerunning popular sets.
3yatt t1_ixytsmv wrote
I did $17k in 2 years. It can be worse. You either are about the life, or you aren’t. People can rip on the group buy model all they want, but the simple fact is it’s what’s allowed people’s ideas to come to life. Vendors are taking on a ton of risk with stock nowadays. We are now seeing more in stock products than ever before. GMK sets aren’t being “flipped” anymore because most of the sets ran in the last couple years are sitting in inventory as extras. There are growing pains, but the reality is group buys now function on a principle of MOQ and getting a discount. We’ve seen plenty of sets gets cancelled in the last year because no one wanted them. However, geekhack and interest check exist for a reason. If you don’t want to wait, then just wait for the set to be ran as “extras”. You’ll easily be able to snag whatever you want in a year or so’s time. Having a peek behind the curtain of what it actually takes to bring a product to the shelves and getting a significant preorder discount because of it isn’t a reason to say it’s stupid.
Truth-Turtle t1_ixy75gc wrote
We’ve built this business method though. By buying into these GBs we allow individuals without any manufacturing or design experience to feel like they can carry out projects too big for them to handle.
Obsolete_Senior t1_ixx36dh wrote
My condolences for your the loss from your bank account.
sunfaller t1_ixxvlr1 wrote
I am not that obsessed with this hobby to spend that much.
do you have that many keyboards to put them all in or will most of them just be on the shelves?
Are you buying these because of the delayed gratification? like you buy something don't receive the gratification within days that in the next month you buy something again and it goes on and on?
mediumrare_chicken t1_ixy716x wrote
I have this many sets and it’s because I have this many keyboards. For me it started as a soldering project which I had never done before during the pandemic. I really enjoyed it so it went to more builds, hand wires, 3d modeling switch break in machines, making cases, experimenting with different layouts like orthos and alice, buying a few really high end keyboards, joining communities with artisan cap makers, etc. this hobby can be a fun creative outlet. Personally my keyboards are just rotated, my fiancé takes different ones to work, my friends will borrow a keyboard for a while. Sure, I guess technically it’s mostly a waste if money but, a lot of us enjoy it so, why not just spend some cash on what makes you happy.
sunfaller t1_ixya3ue wrote
I have 8 keyboards myself but I cannot wait that long for GBs. Just doesn't feel right that they go unbuilt without keycaps. When I get a board, I must already have the keycaps and switches for it.
Marvelm t1_ixylub3 wrote
Just stop joining group buys and the problem will solve itself over time.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyxr0b wrote
>Just stop joining group buys and the problem will solve itself over time.
Then those of us who accept and understand the situation will just carry on running and using them without having to put up with people moaning endlessly about them.
GBs are what made this hobby what it is. Without them, it will just become like the gaming industry. Lots of identical, low risk products that all look the same. The fact that the GB model allows risk taking is what generates the variety and uniqueness of product that drew you here in the first instance, and now you want to kill it because you can't buy stuff with next day delivery?
pabloscrosati t1_ixz429x wrote
You didn’t get your ikki? I got my dreamscape ikki like a year ago!
CertainlyBright OP t1_iy0dhx6 wrote
I got it :) i forgot but yes i have a delivery confirmation. I just shoved the stabs away in a box while i was waiting for dreamscape and the Aozora base :)
TheSlashEffect t1_ixzj44h wrote
What zero p*ssy does to a mofo
concentus7 t1_ixxc2oq wrote
I mean, you mostly bought into GMK this year, so.... yeah.
Command 65 should hopefully be shipping in December with any luck.
CertainlyBright OP t1_ixxcbt3 wrote
still bummed about no news on the Aozora
concentus7 t1_ixxd2hg wrote
True, tis the struggle
surplusofchairs t1_ixzr39k wrote
lol wait i got my ikki dreamscape and aozora ages ago.
CertainlyBright OP t1_ixzthxp wrote
bruh really? when did you get it? what vendor? and where are you located?
the_ebastler t1_iy1axmb wrote
>Buys stuff with known long lead times
>Gets long lead times
>"Why did GMK do this to me"
Keycap GBs have huge lead times across the board for basically all manufacturers, that's a known fact. Don't get into GBs of you are not ready to wait. Buy in-stock, buy extras, buy mechmarket. Or stop complaining about something you knew about when you got into it.
mamamarty21 t1_iy1cimv wrote
Here’s the thing, I had joined a buy that had an 8 month wait… I felt a little stupid for doing it, but I figured “okay, this set looks cool, I can wait 8 months”. It’s been almost two years. If the group buy said “hey, 23 month wait period” I wouldn’t have joined. A one month delay, sure I can handle that… two months? I’m getting a little irritated… 15 month delay? Are you kidding me? I have the fucking right to complain about this shit.
Kitpandikit t1_ixwqmjm wrote
Yikes...
mamamarty21 t1_ixy481b wrote
The group buy business model is stupid as fuck. If designers don’t believe in their set enough to sell it outright, then maybe it isn’t good enough to sell period.
Take a fucking business loan out, run your set, sell it when it’s done.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyv6vu wrote
>The group buy business model is stupid as fuck. If designers don’t believe in their set enough to sell it outright, then maybe it isn’t good enough to sell period.
So I take it if GMK keycaps were in stock, you'd be buying loads of them, right?
> Take a fucking business loan out, run your set, sell it when it’s done.
Another clueless idiot.
Marvelm t1_ixyxlme wrote
> So I take it if GMK keycaps were in stock, you'd be buying loads of them, right?
Well duh? I'd rather buy something when it's on the shelf rather than wait 2 years for that? Must be crazy!
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyybos wrote
You miss my point. Would you actually buy them? Are you actually in the market for a $100+ keycap set?
Marvelm t1_ixyzibn wrote
Well, yeah, I bought KAT Eternal, totally lost interest in it before it arrived 1,5 years later and sold it immediately and now I'm waiting for JTK Sora since April 2021. Likely won't join another GB for that exact reason, it's just fuckin absurd. And then another option is buying from scalpers who sell 130$ sets for 300$, great.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixz0062 wrote
Why not just buy extras? Most vendors will order extras. I just picked up Striker for only slightly more than the GB price.
Get rid of group buys though, and you won't see the variety of keycaps and keyboards we have now. Most interesting stuff, especially keycaps, are designed by community members like you and I, and we can't afford to finance the production of thousands of sets of keycaps. If you rely on big business, they are risk averse. You will definitely see a reduction in variety. They will just do what can be easily demonstrated to be popular... so they copy one another.... which is why all gaming boards are the same.
Marvelm t1_ixz07n5 wrote
I mean sure, if stars align and you come across extras for exactly the set you like, then you're golden but that's not something you can bank on.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixzf8b9 wrote
Maybe not, but if you know when a set will drop, or is expected to drop, you can be ready to pounce as most vendors will have extras. Some even have planners and calendars showing expected dates for each set, and most will have a mailing list you can sign up to. This is how I knew Striker was up as an extra set at Prototypist. I'd forgotten all about it until I got an e-mail telling me. It's not a cast iron guarantee, no, but you can get most things this way if you plan it well.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy184ss wrote
>Why not just buy extras?
Extras have only recently started being priced decently at SOME vendors. Extras pricing for a lot of sets earlier to mid this year was always at $185+, and now some vendors they are finally starting to run a little lower. This is one of the reasons some people were staying away from extras and waiting on sales etc on these higher priced sets. And then there are a few vendors where extras prices are just a bit insane IMO
Extras also only recently have been more available due to vendors starting to purchase enough to not have extras sales sell out within a minute or two
QWERKey-UK t1_iy2n7g6 wrote
I can only go off what vendors in the UK charge, as if I'm buying extras, then I will obviously use a UK vendor. They've always been reasonable. You expect a mark up, as after all, the vendor has taken a risk in ordering extras... for all they knew at the time, the set may not sell well. I've not seen them as expensive as that though. If you missed a GB and really want the set though, paying another $40 or so is still better than being gouged on the aftermarket. I do see your point though, yes.
RegaliaKeyboards t1_iy3kb2k wrote
>paying another $40
That is the problem, at least with US vendors it didn't used to be only a $40 mark up. Its been anywhere from $65 to $80 mark ups for GMK sets on a lot of US vendors until just more recently (I have seen a particular vendor that had higher markups than that even).
I totally get there is going to be some mark up for extras, after all extras are just the vendor saying "we want x amount of sets, so that we can sell some more in case people didn't get a chance to join the GB". So they are paying for those extra sets out of their pockets, so of course there needs to be some sort of return on those sets on top of what they would already be making at GB price. Totally reasonable, its just when they are getting marked up $65 to $80 above what they sold at GB for, that is just a little bit too much. Again, not sure what the markups are over on the UK vendors, but glad that they don't seem to have been as bad as some US vendors.
retardedsquids t1_ixyd3pa wrote
I'm telling you any mizu/olivia-inspired design will sell like pancakes.
And I love me pancakes
NotSoFull-Info69 t1_ixy6x8i wrote
This is probably the least logical comment I have read in a long time
Like jeez did your brain go out for a walk?
mamamarty21 t1_ixy7z97 wrote
How is this illogical? How do you think other businesses work? They don’t go “I’m gonna sell you some coffee, but pay me first and then wait a year and a half and I’ll get it to you once I buy it with the money you gave me.” No, they buy their product with their own money, they sell it to consumers, and then they use the profits to pay themselves and reinvest into their business
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyw456 wrote
>How is this illogical?
Because you clearly have no idea about the costs of developing and manufacturing a keycap set. The people who design all these cool sets are just community members like you and I. They are not large companies. If you wanted to design a keycap set, where would you get the money from? What you don't seem to realise is that even successful group buys for keycaps only sell a couple of thousand (including extras) so the costs are high, and the risk is high. Large companies have no interest in making keycap sets that sell in such small numbers because they would also need to sell them at similar prices. This is why most cheap Chinese keycaps are clones, because the risk is lower. If you KNOW a set is really well liked, you can just make clones to sell at half the price and be fairly certain that they will sell. If you didn't know this beforehand though, it would be a very risky venture to tool up and make caps in these kinds of quantities.
Like most people who say the stuff you are saying, if I asked you to present an alternative model, you'd just say something along the lines of "just make them, and then sell them".... in fact, you pretty much have said that already. This shows that you simply do not have the experience to comment on this. Sorry.
mamamarty21 t1_ixzjagn wrote
Did I not say “take out a business loan”? In one of my posts? That is where I would get the money from if I wanted to make a set.
How many people do you think get burnt off of buying sets from having to wait way over the estimated time? I myself will NEVER EVER take part in a group buy again, and I am sure that there are others. You can’t rely on people like OP who just sink money into it with nothing to show
There are other businesses sell things in stock for hobbies that have less interest than keyboards.
If it isn’t worth the risk to make it, then it shouldn’t be made.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixzk9p0 wrote
>Did I not say “take out a business loan”?
Good luck. Any bank will expect you to have a fully fleshed out business plan. As I keep telling you, even a successful group buy set only sells a couple of thousand. Where are you going to get the evidence that convinces a bank to lend you enough money to make more than that considering that's all they seem to sell? [edit: Many barely scrape though the MOQ limit]
​
>I myself will NEVER EVER take part in a group buy again
Good for you. Then just ignore group buys instead of railing against them. If you have no intention of using them again, what difference does it make to you if they exist or not?
mamamarty21 t1_ixznmwe wrote
Like I said, If it isn’t good enough to sell outright, Why bother selling in the first place?
I will shit talk group buys any chance I get because they’re stupid as fuck. They wouldn’t be half as bad if they took less than 6 months to make. It’s bad enough some runners will say “it’ll be done in 8 months” that’s a flat out lie, you won’t see them for over a year, maybe two. I’m sure someone will come along and defend the atrocious wait times too
QWERKey-UK t1_ixzr9vv wrote
>Like I said, If it isn’t good enough to sell outright, Why bother selling in the first place?
They do sell, just not in the quantities you think they do. They are a niche product. They would not sell in the quantities necessary to mass produce them. The only ones that do, are the ones that have proven to be popular over time, and these are available in stock from Drop. The only reason Drop can do this however, is because they now have the benefit of hind sight. Drop won't be commissioning new designs for in stock products. The market is too volatile, and it's almost impossible to predict what will be popular. No one knew Olivia would be as popular as it is, or Laser. It just was. The designer hit on something that people seem to like. There's no formula for this.
> I will shit talk group buys any chance I get because they’re stupid as fuck.
I know, because you won't listen to reason as to why they are necessary. You seem to think that it's all so simple: Just get the cash, and make them, right? I mean, what can be so difficult? :) I challenge you to even design a set, let alone get it made. Go on.. if it's all so simple and morons like me can't understand, surely you're in a great position to make a killing here. What's stopping you?
The wait times are awful, no one would disagree with you. This is not a fault of the group buy model itself though. It's a combination of things. Some of them are avoidable (colour issues) and some of them aren't (manufacturing capacity). The premise of the group buy model is sound though; Essentially, it is just crowd funding. It's not new, or unique to this hobby.
Your responses go beyond mere criticism though, and come across as genuine hatred. This is fine. What really baffles me is this mission you seem to be on to eradicate group buys, as if it would somehow solve a problem for you. If you hate them so much, just ignore them, and get your keycaps another way... or which there are many options available to you. It literally makes no difference to you if they exist or not. This pathological hatred you seem to display is puzzling.
mamamarty21 t1_iy0bp6i wrote
The thing that’s stopping me from designing a set is my lack of interest in doing so. Im not saying it’s easy, but I could figure it out and do it if I wanted to.
I want things to change, and if people keep getting sucked into group buys, that’ll never happen. By spending money on group buys, you’re saying that it’s okay and totally acceptable to get strung along with minimal communication for two years. It’s not okay and people need to quit thinking it is
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0c7pu wrote
>I want things to change
Obviously, but why, and how is getting rid of group buys going to achieve this change. Furthermore, what would this change be?
> Im not saying it’s easy, but I could figure it out and do it if I wanted to.
I guess we'll never know.
mamamarty21 t1_iy0hb6h wrote
Yeah, and contrary to popular belief, learning how to make 3d renders and all that just to prove a point to a random person on the internet isn’t the best use of one’s time. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0id0g wrote
There's way more to designing a keycap set than making some renders. It wasn't the reason I said that anyway. This guy thinks he has the solution, and is telling us it's easy, (just get a business loan LOL), so why doesn't he just keep quiet, and get on with revolutionising everything and make a ton of money and transform this hobby?
Because it's easy to come out with bullshit, and even believe that bullshit when you have no idea what you are talking about.
mamamarty21 t1_iy0lkou wrote
I feel like the “and all that” kinda encapsulates the “way more to it” part. Either way, doing it doesn’t interest me. I don’t have enough passion for this shit to make me want to design and produce anything. I don’t even want to do that for hobbies that I’m much much more invested in, so I’d never even think to waste my time with it. There are people that actually want to design sets and produce them though, and they are the ones that need to do something about it
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0msua wrote
>I don’t have enough passion for this shit to make me want to design and produce anything.
So in other words, you seem to be passionately arguing about something you aren't very passionate about. (shrug). Maybe you just like arguing on the internet.
​
>There are people that actually want to design sets and produce them though, and they are the ones that need to do something about it
So you are holding the designer responsible for all the things you don't like about group buys? How does that work exactly?
The more you say, the more it becomes obvious that you just don't know enough about all this to have a valid opinion.
My advice to you, is to just ignore group buys. You've still to explain how you personally would gain if they (group buys) disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow. How would you benefit? What do you suppose would change should that come to pass? Can you explain? Why don't you just ignore them instead of (obviously) being so angry about them?
Marvelm t1_ixylo7q wrote
How is this illogical?
xyxjj t1_ixynbe7 wrote
because if we stopped the group buy model it's more likely that the ya'll wont be getting the keycaps you want:
Suppose a gmk groupbuy moq to even get them to run it is 500, and suppose we're talking about a small time vendor that can only afford to buy 500 units (for simplicity in this discussion), and that the vendor will always buy 500 units per run
With a groupbuy model:
There's be X + 500 units floating around in the after market, anyone that wants a set will get a set if they're around for the group buy, so X is the number of people that bought into the groupbuy
​
With a groupbuy model:
There'd literally be only 500 sets available period. You'd then be subjected to the whims of the 500 people in the entire world that managed to get their hands on a set
​
and that's just for base kits. What about childkits like novelties, alternative mods/alphas, child kits for exotic keyboards etc? where are you gonna get keycaps for those then?
[deleted] t1_ixyphei wrote
[deleted]
Marvelm t1_ixyo033 wrote
The point is that every normal business ever FIRST produces stuff THEN sells it. Make them take a loan, get money, do whatever they have to to produce the set if they feel like it's worth it.
If the sets they produce are good, they will sell well, period and then they will get the funds to keep producing them till there is a need for them. It's not rocket science. Good products sell well, if you're confident you have a good product, get the funds, make the product and then sell it.
TimbersawDust t1_ixyzuko wrote
This is a terrible idea. Even if I take months and craft what I think is the perfect keyset, and hell even if I do an interest check and get 1000 entries, there is no guarantee of a return on investment. I’d also have to pay interest on said loan which means the cost of these sets would be higher than they are now. People who run GBs knows that they are in terrible shape right now, and they also know that the alternative is much riskier and worse for everyone. Terrible idea.
Marvelm t1_ixz02ud wrote
Excuse me, so how do you think small companies or one man craftsmanship stores or whatever else run their business?
TimbersawDust t1_ixz08w7 wrote
You are comparing apples to oranges. Running a keyset group buy is very different from anything you are suggesting. The group buy model for keysets has been around for years and has only really become a problem since lead times have gotten out of control.
Zelda2hot t1_ixz0c02 wrote
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back.
^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
Marvelm t1_ixz0o9l wrote
You're only saying that because you're used to it. You still haven't answered the above question. There is always risk in producing something. Going the group buy route is safe because it basically eliminates the risk for the creator because he knows upfront what the demand is.
Then you also admit it's a problem. A problem should be solved and it won't solve itself, the lead times are already absurdly long and they will only become longer and longer.
TimbersawDust t1_ixz1na5 wrote
The above question is irrelevant to this conversation my man. Since you think you are reinventing the wheel here, I’ll answer it. Small business take out business loans. That being said, if I was running a small business, and my customer were willing to pay me up front (similar to a group buy) and I didn’t need to take out a business loan, I would 100% do it. But why aren’t small businesses doing this? Because their customers won’t pay for it. In the group buy model that we have here, they do. That should tell you straight up that these two things are very different and that a solution for a small business is not going to automatically be a solution for a group buy.
Keyset designers are 100% never going to take out a business loan. It will never happen. And as I’ve said before GBs are in shambles right now, but I’m not going to advocate for something that is arguably worse.
SpunkyDred t1_ixz0b2o wrote
> apples to oranges
But you can still compare them.
QWERKey-UK t1_ixywjpq wrote
>Make them take a loan, get money, do whatever they have to to produce the set if they feel like it's worth it.
That's really easy to say when you have no intention of doing it, and are just arguing on the internet.
Marvelm t1_ixyxadm wrote
What kind of logic is that? Companies in EVERY industry work like that, big or small. Brb I'm gonna order a pair of shoes and then wait 2 years for them to be made and delivered. Sounds absurd, doesn't it?
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyyjv4 wrote
>Companies in EVERY industry work like that
No, they don't. They do massive amounts of market research, and if they did this research on the custom keycap market, they would see that it is actually very small, and very niche, and even if they did risk financing the manufacture of a custom keycap set, they would only do so on the premise that most only sell a few thousand sets... because that's a fact, if you bothered to research it.
WozNZ t1_ixy6pj3 wrote
The reason GMK keep getting away with this is because people keep lining up to give them money :)
QWERKey-UK t1_ixyxty3 wrote
Other manufacturers are available.
WozNZ t1_ixzut1r wrote
Yep. But there is a mentality of "Must get GMK" coupled with "Clones are bad m'kay" lol
My view is clones are fine as long as GMK acts like this
QWERKey-UK t1_ixzvf8r wrote
>But there is a mentality of "Must get GMK"
Maybe, but if people want them so badly, why get clones? It's clearly not GMK they want, but the designs, and they aren't designed by GMK.
>My view is clones are fine as long as GMK acts like this
How are GMK acting? They just make what they are paid to make, and in the quantities that they are told to make them. They don't design them. They make keycaps for many clients, not just for group buys in here. How are GMK acting?
Omnias-42 t1_ixzvi04 wrote
The other custom manufacturers have just as long wait times and many times worse QC. Vendors that keep on loading new GBs without any prior fulfillment experience is why every manu gets long overloaded queues - there’s probably two rather new vendors responsible for half to queue at each manu
Clones are harming the community members that make original art, there’s no reason people can’t make their own original in stock keycap set designs, clones are just taking the lazy way or by stealing from those that proved there was market demand.
WozNZ t1_iy02xs4 wrote
See the who harming the x argument thing. I havr heard that over the decade's in music film games etc
Clones in this case are a symptom of the GMK setup. Games for instance used to have bad piracy but steam made games purchase easy and reasonable and piracy dropped.
Then look at tv and movies. Netflix made big inroads to piracy. Then companies got greedy and started their own services. Made watching harder and piracy went up
If GMK made keycaps and listed what they made clones would not have the same impact. But as they announce then make you wait 1-2 years clones come out and have a head start. GMK are the ones hurting the artists here imho
Omnias-42 t1_iy04wdt wrote
You clearly don’t seem to understand how industrial manufacturing works, or that GBs exist in other markets (also know as crowdfunding) to meet niche market demand for custom products that wouldn’t get made otherwise. GMK and others like Signature Plastics without GBs would continue to make the standard black on white keycap sets they sell to commercial customers like on point of sale terminals.
There’s plenty of more generic options available for those not wanting to join a group buy, in addition to extras from previously run group buys. People don’t realize that before group buys, your options were essentially prebuilt keyboards with Cherry Blues, Reds, Blacks, or Browns (or equivalent from Gateron, Kaihl, etc), with beige, black on white, or sometimes white on black keycaps. Group buys is why there’s the customization that exists in the hobby, and what developed a new niche market.
Nobody has to join a GB, also, the clone manufacturers could easily offer to pay a royalty to designers - they choose not to because they don’t care about IP and make more profit not doing so. They don’t want to work with designers, they brag about stealing and have even stolen the trademarks for known entry level brands like Kaihl, Outemu, Vortexgear, Anne Pro.
At the end of the day, if you’re not the one being harmed it’s easy to be entitled about IP. But there’s no reason to pretend you’re better than others because you chose to not support the creators.
These aren’t digital goods either, there’s a significant fixed cost to setup and incremental to make more, it’s not like the near zero marginal cost for digital goods.
Also, clones exist for in stock keycap sets, simply cuz they can. Counterfeits exist for high end keyboards as well. The hobby isn’t just $50-200 keyboards, people spend thousands on some keyboards, and group buys are not for people new to the hobby.
WozNZ t1_iy0fqgw wrote
I do remember when keyboards came as is. I used IBM Model M keyboards when they were new and used and purchased more than a few keyboards over the years :)
I guess this might be a better analogy for the point I was trying to make... The fashion industry.
Not sure if you are aware but fashion designs are unable to get IP protection. They tried back in the day but judges etc stamped on the idea saying a cuff or collar is a cuff or collar so because you shape it this way it is still that item. It is why brands have designs where the pattern includes their logo etc. They have protections on the logo so can go to court over the use.
What happens because this lack of protection is that as new "trends" come down the catwalk there are teams of people ready to start the "clone" process to then pump it onto the highstreet in days.
Not sure how well the protection works on keycaps but could very well see that if I say copied the colourway of a set, tweaked the colours ever so slightly so it preserved the "intent" there would be little recourse in law.
As you put above, there are target audiences at different price points. A GMK customer is less likely to buy clones and also a clone buyer is less likely to buy GMK because of the prices.
In the end of the day I think we are almost on the same page but arguing at different angles. A designer should get paid for their work but I can see how the situation happens if you put out a design that is in demand and then make it a year plus before actually available, the clone makers will flood in to fill the void.
Keycaps as you pointed out are just fashion really. We get sets we like the colours of.
I do understand lead times but if GMK are really running that far behind in the order books that would be an indication that they should expand no?
Omnias-42 t1_iy0hfwd wrote
"tweaked the colours"
But that isn't what is happening, the issue with clones is they are using the exact colours, logo novelties, and the name branding, in some case they even advertise them as "GMK" keycaps. There is a big difference between an inspired design and ripping it off 1:1 including trademarks (and yes, some keycap sets do have registered trademarks for the names, but that doesn't stop the companies overseas from violating it).
There really isn't any excuse either to make clones of regularly in stock sets like DSA Astrolokeys, but it still happens. Sometimes, these companies even counterfeit small time artists directly, like the resin sculpture keycaps Alpha Keycaps and others make, and while artwork like that is protectable IP, enforcement is not really possible given the jurisdiction of where the counterfeiters are based out of.
GMK lead times, as I stated many times, are not isolated to GMK - they are across the board on both Western and Chinese manus, like Signature Plastic, Keyreative, JTK, ePBT, etc. Some like Keyreative have been notorious for various QC issues such as warp, blurred and misaligned legends, and dyesub issues.
You are also ignoring that these lead times exploded due to the abnormally high demand during covid in combination with global supply chain issues, hence why this has affected keycap set manufacturers across the board. At the time orders were being placed, some of these queues may not have been expected to be as long as they ended up. Additionally, GMK has been expanding production with new machines and hiring. https://oblotzky.industries/pages/visiting-gmk
It's not like custom keyboards $400+ have really short GB times either, but the manus and designs are so varied that perhaps it's less noticeable, or people in those GBs are more aware of what a GB entails.
WozNZ t1_iy0kumj wrote
Yep, see where you are coming from on that. Has been an interesting convo.
Nice to be able to have a rational talk on internet without it devolving into shouting :)
Thanks
Omnias-42 t1_iy0l5fs wrote
I think it's also important to remember that some of these people complaining about GB queue times joined when it was already well known the queues were long, and continued to join - the OP here was still joining GBs in March 2022, it's not like the queues will magically go from 2 years to 3 months - but it is fashionable to complain about GMK right now
WozNZ t1_iy0mgsg wrote
Yep. The only "group buy" i ever took part in was for a portable digitizer that had a 3 month lead. It had some time blowout as covid lockdowns started a month before ship so not their fault and they did their best in bad situation. Tend to avoid them myself
Omnias-42 t1_iy0n0cq wrote
Yeah, anyone joining a GB in 2022 or late 2021, especially when there are plenty of in stock alternatives available, should know what they are getting into, so it's hard to take the complaints very seriously - a very large portion of the GBs OP joined were these, a notable one being Dracula R2 - R1 of which was super notorious for taking forever before it even was submitted to the production queue because the designer went through like 5 rounds of colour matching
Some of the "newer" vendors responsible for the large queue volumes also are known to... not submit an order for months after GB sale ends, or to use bottom tier shipping to receive the keycaps and thus take months later to ship after customers in Europe and Asia already received them.
restrav t1_ixymhlm wrote
I thought that the Aozora shipped a few weeks back
CertainlyBright OP t1_ixyzg7t wrote
Crossing my fingers I'll see it soon then!
thunder2132 t1_ixxm92b wrote
I'm waiting patiently on my Zoom65r2 and QK75. Don't think I could handle a wait longer than a few months.
rainzx27 t1_ixyx180 wrote
Stay strong my brother for the waiting game!
Metalicc t1_ixz8fms wrote
At least the Command65 might still arrive this year (I hope)
Someone-StoleMyName t1_ixzppb1 wrote
reps exists
MayAsWellStopLurking t1_iy02tsd wrote
Ikki68 auroras should’ve definitely arrived btw.
CertainlyBright OP t1_iy0e00y wrote
confirmed, I got them :)
Purplejw t1_iy0ntvv wrote
I joined the scs aozora gb thinking it would come by my birthday that year.... here I am still waiting 2 years older lol.
if you haven't yet they've got a discord with updates on shipping, https://discord.gg/jUczxAmN
yo_boi_ejjeong t1_iy170js wrote
relatable
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Tekn0z t1_ixyjyp8 wrote
I almost pulled the plug on nimbus.. but the alpha and mod colors are swapped, so decided to not buy.
Villarosax t1_ixzckx6 wrote
This is really relatable
nordenvonthule t1_ixzf245 wrote
Love a good spreadsheet though
[deleted] t1_ixypwrq wrote
[deleted]
equality4everyonenow t1_ixzems2 wrote
I don't mind spending money but i will never do another group buy just to wait 2 years. Would have to explain to my 6 month old son.. "You can't sell the house until all the group buys come" or write it into my will
Rolling719 t1_iy0qn70 wrote
Only on this dumbass millennial app would you chronic masturbators post your losses so willingly. This is just sad and pathetic. BIG Reddit moment.
AhSum89 t1_iy1009u wrote
Getting "hosed" is the right term
shubashubamogumogu t1_ixxz2t0 wrote
Oh no. I started being active here in this subreddit around the same time as when you joined your first GB.
I joined a few keycap GB's last year as well and I have had some delivered already. And from keeping up on discord etc I know at least one more which is about to be on it's way.
The only real difference is I joined majority non GMK (ePBT, Milkyway, Domikey) and I only joined one GMK GB which hasn’t been fulfilled yet.
If anything have hope for that ePBT Dreamscape GB that you joined early on. Especially because you joined through KBDfans that means you will have it start to be fulfilled (ship) before any other vendors.
lambchoplives t1_ixxdc7v wrote
y’all need impulse control and Jesus