QWERKey-UK t1_iy0d3i8 wrote on November 27, 2022 at 8:10 PM

Reply to comment by hiszpanskiinkwizytor in Problem with group buys by hiszpanskiinkwizytor

>I would say we should collectively either only attend group buys from hosts that meet deadlines

When you say "hosts", who exactly do you mean? The main vendor, or the manufacturer? You can't blame one for the shortcomings of the other.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0dq73 wrote on November 27, 2022 at 8:14 PM

I'm taking about a person who had an idea, started the whole thing and is responsible for the undertaking. In a normal business if you are selling something, you are responsible for problems of your coworkers and manufacturers, not clients.

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0hhs3 wrote on November 27, 2022 at 8:39 PM

>I'm taking about a person who had an idea, started the whole thing and is responsible for the undertaking.

You can't really blame the designer for everything. If a manufacturer's lead times slip after the designer and vendor have submitted everything, then it's the manufacturer's fault. If delays are down to colour samples not being correct for example, that is nearly always the designer's fault. It depends what exactly caused the delay. It's not as simple as blaming the designer for everything, or the manufacturer for everything, or the lead vendor. Each GB that failed to meet a deadline needs to be assessed individually.

So... like I said, you can't blame one for the shortcomings of the other. For someone who has been around a while, you seem to be oversimplifying this.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0iekc wrote on November 27, 2022 at 8:45 PM

Fair enough. I'd like to see any name of a chinese manufacturer here :D And what difference would it make for us. I only care about a name behind a GB and I don't care who the person works with. I compare it to literally everything else that I've ever bought, starting from iphone, ending on the village fair smoked ham. I am buying a product from one company/person and I don't care how much it fucked up it's work during process of making the thing I want to buy.
I just require professionalism from everybody, especially if they take my money.

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0ja0w wrote on November 27, 2022 at 8:50 PM

>I only care about a name behind a GB and I don't care who the person works with.

But that's unfair. Like I said, you may be blaming someone for something that has literally nothing to do with them. Seems to me like you just want someone to blame, and don't really care who. Seriously now, how can you blame a designer if a manu's lead times slip after the designer and lead vendor have done everything correctly? Conversely, how can you blame a manu, if the designer is an idiot and did all his renders using hex codes?

I am getting the impression that despite you saying you have been around a while, you don't actually know much about running a GB. Am I correct in this assumption?

Tweetydabirdie t1_iy0lgp5 wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:04 PM

And that’s your issue right there. In a GB you aren’t buying a product the same way you are buying an iPhone or a smoked ham.

You are instead funding the production of the end product as a (small) partner in the endeavor. Meaning you get to take part in all the ups and downs of it, that the sellers of a product goes though. You aren’t buying an already manufactured product sitting on a shelf. And you knew that quite well walking into it.

So, adjust your expectations accordingly, and the problem is solved.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0ohqb wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:24 PM

I am not a partner, what are you even saying :D:D:D Nobody is. I would be a partner if I had a share if the profit and instead I am a client that takes a huge risk and a GB promoter is a person who takes all of the money (and of course puts work in design and "communication").
It's a mean thing to say to adjust my expectations. I won't ever settle for substandard.

Tweetydabirdie t1_iy0qcts wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:37 PM

Well, call it something else if you prefer, and can find the ‘right’ word. What you a purchasing is a part of a production slot.

Yes, you are effectively taking part in the profit. Most things in a GB would have a much higher price unles it met a MOQ which requires either the GB or a full financing from a single backer taking all the risk and all the profit. Then it would still likely cost more, as that would in-fact be the profit for that backer.

Sure the designer/runner takes more of the profit on paper, but most of them do not accurately count their actual worked hours and if they did, the GB would in many cases be a net loss for them.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0raxx wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:43 PM

I would still like to know what's the percentage of the profit. What is the average income from a group buy, per keyboard? Do you know if any runner gave any post-mortem or post-success summary with values? I have a feeling that the only way of knowing how much you can profit is to run a GB by your own.

Tweetydabirdie t1_iy2jewf wrote on November 28, 2022 at 6:35 AM

Well, I haven’t run any GB’s since I myself have a few bad experiences participating. And don’t worry I will participate again, I just don’t want that responsibility that way.

I am however considering kickstarter/indiegogo for some projects as it’s a bit more ‘regulated’ and have done so for other unrelated projects, and I can tell you from that experience trying to make a budget, guess at half the costs, and get the price of the end product to a sane level that people can accept, set a timeline that won’t kill you from overworking yourself, that the overall profit if you actually count your hours as an employee or as a business owner would, it’s 100% guaranteed to be a loosing endeavor.

The ‘real’ profit is in you yourself getting whatever it is you funding most of the time. And I think that applies to a lot of GB runners.

There have been a few GB runners posting numbers in the past, and without remembering any specifics, the over all image is the same. At best they got the profit to cover their hours and perhaps a little on the top, most often not. Feel free to find the numbers and dispute me though, as it was a while back.

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0l6mg wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:02 PM

The only concession I am prepared to make here, is that the designer (and GB runner) may be (and usually is) responsible for getting other worldwide vendors on board, and they may not choose wisely, but if there is a problem with one particular vendor, it doesn't necessarily follow that the entire GB is a car crash and buyers elsewhere may not even have a problem at all. Then in that instance, it's that one particular vendor that created an issue, not the designer.

There are just too many variables to say the designer (usually the person who advertises the GB and generates the interest through posts and social media awareness) can't always be the person who is to blame if something totally out of their control happens. From a legal point of view, the person ultimately responsible if it comes to refunds etc. would be the vendor you "bought" them from, and as most GBs have multiple vendors, even that is not as straightforward as you seem to be suggesting.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0nul3 wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:20 PM

All right, and I do go to the vendor in the end, but everybody is blurring the resposibility (vendor states that it is the group buy standard and it's up to the GB host), the GB runner says it's vendors and vendors... well they don't care because they don't have to.

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0otfd wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:26 PM

After reading your other comments in other conversations in this thread, it's obvious you have literally no idea how all this works, and as is so common lately, you are just annoyed and angry that you can't buy these things as off the shelf, in stock products.

Group buys are what made this hobby. The alternative is to just let large companies with the capital to invest in mass production take over. That will not end well. It will kill all creativity as they seek low risk, high gain solutions, and only care about their bottom line. If you want an example of that in reality, then look no further than the "gaming" peripheral market where all the keyboards are the same, and there is little to no creativity or variety to be seen. Why do you think THAT is? Hmm? It's because the lowest risk, and highest gains are to be had by pandering to the lowest common denominator, and having an advertising budget massive enough to convince kids that that's what they really need. The quality of the products are awful as well.

So, be careful what you wish for, as you just might get it.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0p478 wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:28 PM

I could say the same about you, that you have no idea how the business and the manufacturing industry works in general. How would you feel?
I know exactly how it works as I am manufacturing items on a big and startup scale.
Don't be a jerk and stop projecting your insecurities on other people.

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0rs40 wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:46 PM

>I could say the same about you

You could, but it would be unfounded.

>that you have no idea how the business and the manufacturing industry works in general.

I know that the volumes involved in custom keycap sales is not sufficient to sustain the kind of manufacturing you are talking about. This is backed up by facts. Every (properly run) group buy thread in Geekhack is updated regularly with sales figures, and we know precisely how most keycap sets sell. If you could be bothered researching this before you decided to wade in with damp powder, you would have realised this. It's a niche market. You seem to think that it's possible to just make container loads of these things and sell them. It's unrealistic, as almost every other respondent in this thread is also telling you. I know how much it costs to make the molds for double shot novelties... do you? I know how much it costs to develop and design a keycap set properly... I mean the personal investment to the designer. Do you? I know how much the vendors pay GMK (for example) and how much profit is made by both the vendors and the designers... do you? Everything you are suggesting is unrealistic. A really successful keycap group buy sells around two to three thousand units (and were talking about the big hitters here), including extras. This is publicly available data, should you be bothered to confirm it. The market for what you suggest is just not there. The only time it is tenable, is when a set has already proven itself to be popular, in which case other rounds are run, or in some cases, a large vendor, such as Drop will make a deal with the designer, and offer them as an in stock option, and only because they can be far more confident that larger quantities will sell... and even THEN, the numbers involved are small when compared to stuff sold to the wider, more general markets such as the gaming market.

>I know exactly how it works as I am manufacturing items on a big and startup scale.

Then why are you failing to understand, despite being told by multiple sources, why you are wrong?

>Don't be a jerk and stop projecting your insecurities on other people.

What insecurities? I'm supplying you with facts.. easily verified facts. You refuse to even acknowledge that you could possibly be wrong though, let alone verify the facts you are being given. Everything you are saying is based purely on your opinion, and backed up by precisely zero facts.

Are group buys perfect? No.

Can they be improved? Probably.

Are they essential to maintain the autonomy and creative nature of this hobby? Fuck yes!

Should we get rid of them? Not until you, or anyone else comes up with a better model that allows us, as members of this community to design and make reality the keyboards and accessories we actually want.

Will big business with lots of cash to invest give us that? No. Of course not.

Do you actually have any real, workable solutions? No.

Are you just bitching because you have to wait for these crowd funded, low production run, bespoke products to be made because you entered into them with the same attitude as you would have had buying something off Amazon? Yes.

Should you just stay away from group buys? Probably.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0tc3n wrote on November 27, 2022 at 9:56 PM

>I know how much it costs to make the molds for double shot novelties... do you? I know how much it costs to develop and design a keycap set properly... I mean the personal investment to the designer. Do you? I know how much the vendors pay GMK (for example) and how much profit is made by both the vendors and the designers... do you?

Are you going to tell some solid numbers or are you going to just respond with empty arguments?

> why are you failing to understand, despite being told by multiple sources, why you are wrong?

Because reddit "anonymous" coommenters are not a source of truth to me? :D If there would be a group buy runner or a vendor replying I would take it under consideration. As far as I know, everybody commenting is just as far as a buyer.

> Everything you are saying is based purely on your opinion, and backed up by precisely zero facts.

Fair enough. It's just my opinion and experience and I never stated the opposite.

>Do you actually have any real, workable solutions? No.

Yes, I stated them in my original post and comments.

>Are you just bitching because you have to wait for these crowd funded, low production run, bespoke products are made because you entered into them with the same attitude as you would have as buying something off Amazon? Yes.

Yes, because I paid for a product and I didn't receive it. Simple as that.

>Should you just stay away from group buys? Probably.

For sure I won't attend any more group buys (after attending 9). Should you improve not being bitchy to people? Also yes.

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0vqzp wrote on November 27, 2022 at 10:14 PM

>Are you going to tell some solid numbers or are you going to just respond with empty arguments?

If you mean am I going to spoon feed you? No. The facts are all there to be found should you wish to find them. If you want to know more, then I suggest you frequent the Discord servers of the main vendors, designers and manufacturers and talk to them, or at least just read what others are discussing. Use Geekhack as a resource for information, not Reddit.

>Because reddit "anonymous" coommenters are not a source of truth to me?

Yet you keep asking me for more truth... on Reddit? LOL. Take the advice in the above paragraph, and spend some time talking to people who you can trust more then, and actually learn about a subject before you condemn it. Please... don't take my word for it. I wouldn't want you to. I'd rather you actually learn more actually. Geekhack, and Discord are where you will get this mostly publicly disseminated information. You will find that vendors and many manufacturers are quite open to discuss most things if you join their Discords. Designers with experience are often quite open to discuss what their processes entailed, and how much they were paid, and how much GMK charge. Has it ever occurred to you to do this and pose your questions directly to those who design stuff, and those that market it, and ultimately, those that make it? I suspect it never occurred to you at all. Did it occur to you that those responding to you in this thread have? Judging by how you react to what they are telling you, I suspect that would be no as well.

There are no dark, mysterious secrets. This entire hobby is mostly community driven. Much information is readily available, and most are willing to share that information if it helps others who are interested in getting stuff made.

>Should you improve not being bitchy to people?

Should you make posts where you condemn things you know little about? What do you think?

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0x67b wrote on November 27, 2022 at 10:24 PM

>I'd rather you actually learn more actually. Geekhack, and Discord are where you will get this mostly publicly disseminated information.

Eh, the discrod that just informed me that Keyrative had no delays so far? You are right about the reddit help in this matter.

>I suspect it never occurred to you at all.

You know what? It did and I did contact people who designed things I bought. You are very presumptuous, do you know that mf?

>Did it occur to you that those responding to you in this thread have?

You and the other guy ? XD

>Should you make posts where you condemn things you know little about? What do you think?

I have all the right to say what I think about venture I attend

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0zkap wrote on November 27, 2022 at 10:41 PM

>I have all the right to say what I think about venture I attend

As do people have the right to challenge it, and in this case, with good reason. No one is saying group buys are perfect, but all the people who moan about them always fail to offer a workable alternative. They just moan about it. It's tiresome. Some group buys are awful, some are fine. You know what, some products made by large companies are fucking awful as well. Car manufacturers sometimes make things that kill people. Boeing made a plane that literally nose dived out of the fucking sky, just because they were scared of putting off buyers by telling them that their pilots would need retraining. If you think handing all of this over to big business will solve issues, you are deluded. Stuff goes wrong, but unless you can offer some real, tangible alternatives, you are not helping. What needs to actually happen is better communication between all concerned parties, and better dissemination of information to group buy participants. That I will grant you, but all I hear lately is group buys are something that need to be got rid of, that they are broken, and that we need stuff to be in stock blah blah cackababble.... and that really would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you fail to understand why that is, then you need to have a think about what it actually is that made you want to take part in this hobby in the first instance. I bet it wasn't off the shelf products you could buy in stock. I bet it was the cool group buy custom stuff. Well... if we, as community members want to get the stuff we actually want made, and sold to other community members, all under our control without selling out to companies that will just milk us for profit, then we need to raise the money ourselves. The minute we stop doing that, then more and more we will see this hobby slide towards the same, turgid mediocrity that is prevalent in other comparative markets. Why you, or anyone else who is interested in custom products wants that, is fucking beyond me.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2qwox wrote on November 28, 2022 at 8:16 AM

> but all the people who moan about them always fail to offer a workable alternative. They just moan about it. It's tiresome.

It's not up to me to offer an alternative. If I was running a GB it would be a different situation.

> If you think handing all of this over to big business will solve issues, you are deluded.

I don't appreciate you calling me names. It's rude.

> Why you, or anyone else who is interested in custom products wants that, is fucking beyond me.

I think you need to chill and open your mind a bit.

QWERKey-UK t1_iy2reev wrote on November 28, 2022 at 8:23 AM

>It's not up to me to offer an alternative. If I was running a GB it would be a different situation.

Which implies you do in fact have an alternative. What is it? You're not running a GB though, are you. You wouldn't know where to start.

I didn't call you a name. Deluded is an adjective.

>I think you need to chill and open your mind a bit.

To what? You are offering nothing to be open about. You're just moaning and telling us big companies with loads of money should step in. We all know how that will end. We just need to look at the gaming peripheral market where that has already happened. Is that what you want? Is it?

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2rqv1 wrote on November 28, 2022 at 8:28 AM

>Which implies you do in fact have an alternative. What is it?

No it doesn't.

>I didn't call you a name. Deluded is an adjective.

If I say you are acting like a moron, I don't call you names, it's just an adjective?

QWERKey-UK t1_iy2s2nb wrote on November 28, 2022 at 8:33 AM

>No it doesn't.

yes it does. You said if you were running a GB it would be a different situation. So how would it be different?

>If I say you are acting like a moron, I don't call you names, it's just an adjective?

Correct. It's an insult, or in your case, a description, not a name. Always be correct.

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2sopr wrote on November 28, 2022 at 8:42 AM

> yes it does. You said if you were running a GB it would be a different situation. So how would it be different?

It would be a different situation, because it that case I would be obliged to provide a good service. But I am not running a GB so it's not my problem.

>Correct. It's an insult, or in your case, a description, not a name. Always be correct.

Then I would call you a hypocrite

Kresterz t1_iy48zhy wrote on November 28, 2022 at 5:13 PM

Want to give us a list of the manufacturing of products you've done then?

And if you have done manufacturing then why don't you set up something for keyboards since you clearly will be more reliable and better at it than the already existing keyboard manufacturing competition?