Submitted by hiszpanskiinkwizytor t3_z68zez in MechanicalKeyboards
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0rs40 wrote
Reply to comment by hiszpanskiinkwizytor in Problem with group buys by hiszpanskiinkwizytor
>I could say the same about you
You could, but it would be unfounded.
>that you have no idea how the business and the manufacturing industry works in general.
I know that the volumes involved in custom keycap sales is not sufficient to sustain the kind of manufacturing you are talking about. This is backed up by facts. Every (properly run) group buy thread in Geekhack is updated regularly with sales figures, and we know precisely how most keycap sets sell. If you could be bothered researching this before you decided to wade in with damp powder, you would have realised this. It's a niche market. You seem to think that it's possible to just make container loads of these things and sell them. It's unrealistic, as almost every other respondent in this thread is also telling you. I know how much it costs to make the molds for double shot novelties... do you? I know how much it costs to develop and design a keycap set properly... I mean the personal investment to the designer. Do you? I know how much the vendors pay GMK (for example) and how much profit is made by both the vendors and the designers... do you? Everything you are suggesting is unrealistic. A really successful keycap group buy sells around two to three thousand units (and were talking about the big hitters here), including extras. This is publicly available data, should you be bothered to confirm it. The market for what you suggest is just not there. The only time it is tenable, is when a set has already proven itself to be popular, in which case other rounds are run, or in some cases, a large vendor, such as Drop will make a deal with the designer, and offer them as an in stock option, and only because they can be far more confident that larger quantities will sell... and even THEN, the numbers involved are small when compared to stuff sold to the wider, more general markets such as the gaming market.
>I know exactly how it works as I am manufacturing items on a big and startup scale.
Then why are you failing to understand, despite being told by multiple sources, why you are wrong?
>Don't be a jerk and stop projecting your insecurities on other people.
What insecurities? I'm supplying you with facts.. easily verified facts. You refuse to even acknowledge that you could possibly be wrong though, let alone verify the facts you are being given. Everything you are saying is based purely on your opinion, and backed up by precisely zero facts.
Are group buys perfect? No.
Can they be improved? Probably.
Are they essential to maintain the autonomy and creative nature of this hobby? Fuck yes!
Should we get rid of them? Not until you, or anyone else comes up with a better model that allows us, as members of this community to design and make reality the keyboards and accessories we actually want.
Will big business with lots of cash to invest give us that? No. Of course not.
Do you actually have any real, workable solutions? No.
Are you just bitching because you have to wait for these crowd funded, low production run, bespoke products to be made because you entered into them with the same attitude as you would have had buying something off Amazon? Yes.
Should you just stay away from group buys? Probably.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0tc3n wrote
>I know how much it costs to make the molds for double shot novelties... do you? I know how much it costs to develop and design a keycap set properly... I mean the personal investment to the designer. Do you? I know how much the vendors pay GMK (for example) and how much profit is made by both the vendors and the designers... do you?
Are you going to tell some solid numbers or are you going to just respond with empty arguments?
> why are you failing to understand, despite being told by multiple sources, why you are wrong?
Because reddit "anonymous" coommenters are not a source of truth to me? :D If there would be a group buy runner or a vendor replying I would take it under consideration. As far as I know, everybody commenting is just as far as a buyer.
> Everything you are saying is based purely on your opinion, and backed up by precisely zero facts.
Fair enough. It's just my opinion and experience and I never stated the opposite.
>Do you actually have any real, workable solutions? No.
Yes, I stated them in my original post and comments.
>Are you just bitching because you have to wait for these crowd funded, low production run, bespoke products are made because you entered into them with the same attitude as you would have as buying something off Amazon? Yes.
Yes, because I paid for a product and I didn't receive it. Simple as that.
>Should you just stay away from group buys? Probably.
For sure I won't attend any more group buys (after attending 9). Should you improve not being bitchy to people? Also yes.
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0vqzp wrote
>Are you going to tell some solid numbers or are you going to just respond with empty arguments?
If you mean am I going to spoon feed you? No. The facts are all there to be found should you wish to find them. If you want to know more, then I suggest you frequent the Discord servers of the main vendors, designers and manufacturers and talk to them, or at least just read what others are discussing. Use Geekhack as a resource for information, not Reddit.
​
>Because reddit "anonymous" coommenters are not a source of truth to me?
Yet you keep asking me for more truth... on Reddit? LOL. Take the advice in the above paragraph, and spend some time talking to people who you can trust more then, and actually learn about a subject before you condemn it. Please... don't take my word for it. I wouldn't want you to. I'd rather you actually learn more actually. Geekhack, and Discord are where you will get this mostly publicly disseminated information. You will find that vendors and many manufacturers are quite open to discuss most things if you join their Discords. Designers with experience are often quite open to discuss what their processes entailed, and how much they were paid, and how much GMK charge. Has it ever occurred to you to do this and pose your questions directly to those who design stuff, and those that market it, and ultimately, those that make it? I suspect it never occurred to you at all. Did it occur to you that those responding to you in this thread have? Judging by how you react to what they are telling you, I suspect that would be no as well.
There are no dark, mysterious secrets. This entire hobby is mostly community driven. Much information is readily available, and most are willing to share that information if it helps others who are interested in getting stuff made.
​
>Should you improve not being bitchy to people?
Should you make posts where you condemn things you know little about? What do you think?
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0x67b wrote
>I'd rather you actually learn more actually. Geekhack, and Discord are where you will get this mostly publicly disseminated information.
Eh, the discrod that just informed me that Keyrative had no delays so far? You are right about the reddit help in this matter.
>I suspect it never occurred to you at all.
You know what? It did and I did contact people who designed things I bought. You are very presumptuous, do you know that mf?
​
>Did it occur to you that those responding to you in this thread have?
You and the other guy ? XD
>Should you make posts where you condemn things you know little about? What do you think?
I have all the right to say what I think about venture I attend
QWERKey-UK t1_iy0zkap wrote
>I have all the right to say what I think about venture I attend
As do people have the right to challenge it, and in this case, with good reason. No one is saying group buys are perfect, but all the people who moan about them always fail to offer a workable alternative. They just moan about it. It's tiresome. Some group buys are awful, some are fine. You know what, some products made by large companies are fucking awful as well. Car manufacturers sometimes make things that kill people. Boeing made a plane that literally nose dived out of the fucking sky, just because they were scared of putting off buyers by telling them that their pilots would need retraining. If you think handing all of this over to big business will solve issues, you are deluded. Stuff goes wrong, but unless you can offer some real, tangible alternatives, you are not helping. What needs to actually happen is better communication between all concerned parties, and better dissemination of information to group buy participants. That I will grant you, but all I hear lately is group buys are something that need to be got rid of, that they are broken, and that we need stuff to be in stock blah blah cackababble.... and that really would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you fail to understand why that is, then you need to have a think about what it actually is that made you want to take part in this hobby in the first instance. I bet it wasn't off the shelf products you could buy in stock. I bet it was the cool group buy custom stuff. Well... if we, as community members want to get the stuff we actually want made, and sold to other community members, all under our control without selling out to companies that will just milk us for profit, then we need to raise the money ourselves. The minute we stop doing that, then more and more we will see this hobby slide towards the same, turgid mediocrity that is prevalent in other comparative markets. Why you, or anyone else who is interested in custom products wants that, is fucking beyond me.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2qwox wrote
> but all the people who moan about them always fail to offer a workable alternative. They just moan about it. It's tiresome.
It's not up to me to offer an alternative. If I was running a GB it would be a different situation.
> If you think handing all of this over to big business will solve issues, you are deluded.
I don't appreciate you calling me names. It's rude.
> Why you, or anyone else who is interested in custom products wants that, is fucking beyond me.
I think you need to chill and open your mind a bit.
QWERKey-UK t1_iy2reev wrote
>It's not up to me to offer an alternative. If I was running a GB it would be a different situation.
Which implies you do in fact have an alternative. What is it? You're not running a GB though, are you. You wouldn't know where to start.
I didn't call you a name. Deluded is an adjective.
​
>I think you need to chill and open your mind a bit.
To what? You are offering nothing to be open about. You're just moaning and telling us big companies with loads of money should step in. We all know how that will end. We just need to look at the gaming peripheral market where that has already happened. Is that what you want? Is it?
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2rqv1 wrote
>Which implies you do in fact have an alternative. What is it?
No it doesn't.
>I didn't call you a name. Deluded is an adjective.
If I say you are acting like a moron, I don't call you names, it's just an adjective?
QWERKey-UK t1_iy2s2nb wrote
>No it doesn't.
yes it does. You said if you were running a GB it would be a different situation. So how would it be different?
>If I say you are acting like a moron, I don't call you names, it's just an adjective?
Correct. It's an insult, or in your case, a description, not a name. Always be correct.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2sopr wrote
> yes it does. You said if you were running a GB it would be a different situation. So how would it be different?
It would be a different situation, because it that case I would be obliged to provide a good service. But I am not running a GB so it's not my problem.
>Correct. It's an insult, or in your case, a description, not a name. Always be correct.
Then I would call you a hypocrite
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