Problem with group buys

Submitted by hiszpanskiinkwizytor t3_z68zez in MechanicalKeyboards

Hi!

I have to take something off my shoulder. I'm a member of this community for years and nothing changed when it comes to deadlines of group buys.
In the beginning I understood the concept and flaws that come with it. I know that basically a host of a group buy is taking a loan from buyers in order to fulfill the project with the money he/she will gather.
That's why you announce a GB and then clients pay money and as you gather enough you make an order for parts of the keyboard/keycaps.
Years ago I understood that a group buy can be prolonged and deadline won't be meet due to the fact that a GB host is delegating the work to external companies.
What troubles me is the fact that after years nothing changed. Deadlines are still not met and not even by weeks or months. Years. YEARS! Literally no GB I attended met a deadline. They didn't even manage to fit into one year of delay.
What happened? I guess nothing. Not only clients (us) changed their approach or got dignity. We still like to be fucked in the ass with lack of professionality in GB hosts. Big names (Zeal), small ones (Freshfromthegrave), everybody is having the same, shitty ethic of work.
Why the hell do you give a deadline when YOU KNOW it won't be met? Let's say I announce a GB now.
I say it will be GMK Whateverawesomefamousbrandripoffitwillbe. I learned graphic design programs so I know how to make a render so I do so. I also have a great idea. Oh, let's say it will be House of Dragon color concept. Without any feedback from GMK I say the shipment will be on 1st of January, 2024. People get hooked on. They pay, I provide new info how bad the situatuation with delays is in Germany. Of course everybody will understand as I will say how it's not up to me and I am also waiting for the production to start. That's when I contact GMK to ask about deadline. They say they are filled with orders because you are one of 1k people who got the same idea.
So you don't know what to do and you continue with the communication (other way of communicating that the place that you posted a BG is mandatory, preferably Discord). After half year you are writing apologies that GMK delayed the production by half year. You know that it will be two years but you already gave deadline and people will ask for returns if you tell the truth. So you write every half year that the delay is half more year until the initial deadline given by manufacturer is met.

I have a feeling, that no GB host knows what he/she is doing and we should pick them better, or we will sink on the sewage of pitifulness.

I had to let all of this frustration go. I love the community, I enjoy assembling, buying and creating my own keyboards but even tho the community and the market keeps growing, I find it harder and harder to give my money to people who will keep it for years.

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[deleted] t1_iy0gl1k wrote

Congrats on the 10,000th post about this and adding nothing new to the conversation!

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Cobertt t1_iy06ley wrote

The vast majority of the time the group buy runners are giving what timeline they are given by the manufacturers. What you recommend is pretty unrealistic. I agree that the manufacturers should be held to a higher standard but at the moment everything is messed up globally. China still has mandatory Covid shut downs closing and ending production, the global supply chain is actually still messed up, there are a ton of things outside of the runners control that are affecting all of these group buys. The runners you should support are the ones who are constantly updating through all the delays and being transparent. Not the ones who just sit in silence with no updates.

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Latlan t1_iy8t4nq wrote

Lol what does Covid has anything to do with this? It has always been like this with or without Covid, who are you kidding?

Everything is 'messed up globally' but the only place we see problems is mech keebs while every other production and manufacturing processes reach deadlines just fine? lol.

​

>timeline they are given by the manufacturers

And we take this for granted because???

​

Here is an idea. Create a product, get a loan to fabricate it. Then sell it. That's the real world for you.

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Cobertt t1_iy8yngi wrote

That's not true at all. The majority of things have bounced back to some degree yes, but I was referring to shipping, which is still an issue, and the fact that China still has strict lock down protocols that stop production constantly, that's the whole reason there are riots right now and protests right now. You're adding nothing of value to this conversation. What do you even mean by take this for granted? What else are GB runners supposed to base their timelines off of?

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jewbacca7777 t1_iy34kt4 wrote

Would you like some cheese with that whine? Just stick to purchasing on mechmarket or from larger brands like Geonworks/Owlabs etc that have their act together and don’t take 2 years to deliver a group buy. There’s way to avoid being screwed by micro brands that don’t have the know how or integrity to stick to the deadlines they set for their customers

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Cobertt t1_iy3anke wrote

Wow so insightful. I wasn’t even the one complaining so your comment is misplaced.

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jewbacca7777 t1_iy3co6x wrote

Oh my bad haha I meant to reply to the OP. Your response wasn’t Whiney at all.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0871v wrote

> should support are the ones who are constantly updating through all the delays and being transparent. Not the ones who just sit in silence with no updates.

But the only thing it changes is that you just support more communicative options. It doesn't encourage them to choose better suppliers.
Maybe the problem is the fact that everybody wants to cheap out and have 50% of the profit from an item, so they are choosing China and other cheap and affected sources.
I have a vision, that a person who wants to make a group buy doesn't want to end at one action. In my perfect world this person would do the whole thing professionally, by for example hiring a worker and buying a CNC machine to create switchplates and to pack them. And of course you can extrapolate it further to other parts of the keyboard.
In this way you have to pay worker, you have to invest money in tools and you have to really commit.
What I see happens instead, is an enthusiast who has a good idea and sometimes even skill in graphic design. At best. At worst it is a business who is a fan, but also wants to purely earn as much as possible. None of it is bad, but the latter is cheaper and that's what appeals to people. What I am preaching is that we should choose the former option. What changes? With the proper demand and pressure from customers, both will get professional - the enthusiast and the businessman. In order to provide a basic quality of service (meeting deadlines, or even having the product in stock instead of doing a pathological form of fulfilment) they will have to choose local manufacturers or will have to have proper backoffice (facility) to manufacture in house. Yes, it will lower the income (profit) but it will give us a normal quality of service.

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Cobertt t1_iy0aabs wrote

But what your explaining isn’t sustainable for a niche hobby. You expect every group buy runner, that wants to run caps for example, to do the tooling and injection molding themselves? You’re going to be paying a grand a set because that’s a ridiculous idea. Every person that wants to run a keyboard needs a cnc machine and mill and the warehouse space? You’re going to be paying thousands for just a case? As a runner why would I pay more for American production, for example, when it’s more expensive, has just as many delays, and honestly isn’t any better in quality and often times worse in quality than Chinese manufacturing? Make no mistake I’m not defending gmk or any one else that has absurd delays, but in your perfect world I better be able to pick up a cnc machine for $1000 down the street and have some sort of universal income so that I can quit my job, sit in my garage and machine keyboard cases myself.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0ax5p wrote

That's exactly what I am saying, If the only thing you can provide as a GB host is an idea and a good will, then I am better off with other costly hobbies, that provide items with not only good quality, but also a basic quality of service.

1000 dollars for a CNC machine is not a lot if you are selling keyboards that each one of them cost 1k.

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Cobertt t1_iy0b3si wrote

A cnc machine costs far far far more than that, it was an example of living in your perfect world that is completely unrealistic.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0bhd0 wrote

Let it cost 10x that. If you are selling 100 keyboards for the price of 1k USD, you can invest in that. Especially if you are as "big" as rama or zeal and you are planning to do GB in the future. That's how a normal manufacturing business works in real life.

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Cobertt t1_iy0cabg wrote

See this is the big problem. People who have no idea what things cost are offering unrealistic solutions. I used cnc mill is about 25,000 and you’re not even talking raw material cost, or annodization vats or anything. Welcome to the real world. You can’t just make a business like that, especially if you aren’t born into money. RAMA is a horrible comparison because he had money before his keyboard business.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0d0qf wrote

I have a friend that has a laser CNC that costed WAY less than yours. Gives and amazing quality (not sure about efficiency so maybe you would need 5 of them for a GB). I am also taking raw materials cost under account and I do think that people are overpricing their GB keyboards heavily.

Even if your CNC costs 25k USD and it is only a fraction of you investment, when you sell 100 keyboards that cost 1000k USD, it's still a small cost. Not to mention it's an investment and if you really only want to do one group buy, just freaking sell it afterwards.

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Cobertt t1_iy0dkva wrote

A laser cnc is not the same as a mill. A mill is required for making a keyboard case. A laser can cut plates and stuff, thin sheets.

How am is someone supposed to afford 25k for a mill pre group buy. I sure as hell am not spending 1k ona keyboard where the group buy runner says hey! I have idea for a keyboard here’s the render. I don’t know how to cnc but I’m going to buy a mill and annodization vats and learn how to do it. Oh and the board costs more than a keycult.

That’s how you encourage scammers.

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Latlan t1_iy8tmv5 wrote

>That’s how you encourage scammers.

Yeah I wonder where clones came from. Something to do with GBs I recon. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Cobertt t1_iy8xz1r wrote

Clones are in every space and it's because China doesn't regulate anything when it comes to IP infringement or copyright. Clones are bad, period. End of story.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0dzsg wrote

But that's what most group buys look like :DEven with big manufacturers like Zeal. They start GB without even having an idea how to make on or don't even have samples from manufacturers.

That's how I encourage scammers? WTF man, I literally am praying for the opposite...

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Cobertt t1_iy0eb0f wrote

In what world? Switches get samples, the molds don’t change for gmk (I’d like to see pre group buy color matching), and the vast majority of boards probably like 95% get prototypes. So that’s not how group buys work.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0eta4 wrote

I don't think we understand each other.

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sleepjack t1_iy0gvwg wrote

u/hiszpanskiinkwizytor you should take what Cobertt is saying to heart here.

It is absolutely unrealistic to ask a runner to have the capital to fund an entire manufacturing operation by themselves. If that were the case, then this hobby wouldn’t exist to begin with. Designers that are doing their best to keep everyone appraised of the group buy’s timeline aren’t your enemy here.

We should continue to hold companies like GMK, Keyreative, etc. accountable for poor communication and missing deadlines. But acting as though that is the fault of a good-faith runner is misplacing your frustration.

Best thing you can do is not join GB’s that use manufacturers/vendors with a problematic track record, and support those that respect their customers.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0hlyg wrote

Thanks for this comment.
I get you point that it may not be a runner's fault. Nevertheless, why is missing a deadline a rule? There are many runners that are doing a second or third GB and they still have the same problems.

Maybe some GB runner should speak up about their real profit? I wonder what is a percent of profit from an average group buy (I am sure we won't ever get an answer). I wonder if there is a space for improvement of a quality.
I bet no GB runner does it pro publico bono ;)

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sleepjack t1_iy0k90r wrote

Again, deadlines being missed are almost always on the fault of the manufacturer.

Take GMK or example: their main revenue comes from commercial manufacturing, not this hobby. So their involvement in the custom keycap space is essentially that of a “side gig.” Their responsibility of upholding a groupbuy’s timeline is not a high priority of theirs. The ways in which they choose to neglect their obligation to their group buy customers isn’t a problem a runner has any control over.

As for why runners keep choosing to use problematic manufacturers is a whole other problem: the scarcity of manufacturers to begin with. There are only a handful, so the hobby at large is somewhat left to choose the lesser of two evils in a lot of cases.

Most importantly, running a group buy costs a huge investment of time and money, and it will be YEARS before you see any money made from it. While I don’t know the exact % of the profits that will go to the runner, I do think they should be compensated appropriately. Remember that most organizers are doing this on their own dime, and many don’t make it to production to begin with.

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Cobertt t1_iy0jhkt wrote

Yeah I don’t know where you’re joining group buys that don’t do prototypes or have proof of concept like gmk’s history of caps. And if you join them that’s your own fault. You keep bringing up zeal but their switches all have samples and they prototype their stabilizers. So to be completely honest it sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0jxj4 wrote

I do, and it sound like you like to take assumptions without a background.
I was attending Zeal's only keyboard GB - Xeno. It wasn't the only GB I was/am attending to and I won't take shit from a person that just can't understand that somebody can be pissed about something that he can cope with.

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Cobertt t1_iy0kh7n wrote

Yeah but zeal had prototypes for the Xeno, and your directly arguing that this hobby doesn’t do that. So again my point stands. I’m not happy with delays either but currently there is no reasonable other option for extremely niche hobbies, and your solutions was impractical.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0ngn2 wrote

Excuse me, where did I state that prototypes matter? I only say that if you do prototypes and they don't meet your standards, it's on you and not on clients who attend GB. You should take the fuckup under account and add it to the deadline instead of being a hype boy that says everything will go perfectly fine.

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Cobertt t1_iy0o05v wrote

When I said that if you ran it in your world no one would have protos before production because they’d have to use funds to buy the supplies and your response was that’s how it already is. I didn’t say be a hype boy either. You’re just frustrated that there isn’t a logical solution. Which is fair, but you’re digging a hole here.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0oqcd wrote

There is a logical solution and I stated it in my original post.

If you want a proto, do it on your own and then start a GB. Not the other way around.

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Cobertt t1_iy0owzk wrote

That’s already how it’s done. You’re literally arguing against yourself at this point.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0p8hv wrote

Not how it went in GBs I was attending. You are just arguing for the sake of winning.

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Cobertt t1_iy0plz3 wrote

What are you doing then because you haven’t made a good point yet? And like I said if you chose to buy something that had no proto, then that’s on you, don’t try and start some grand hate thread on group buys when you failed to do what might be the simplest part of buying into something, making sure the product actually exists or even could exist.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0pulm wrote

>when you failed to do what might be the simplest part of buying into something, making sure the product actually exists or even could exist.

Can you elaborate? English is not my main language and I think my skill surrendered here.

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Cobertt t1_iy0q4bi wrote

You joined a group buy that had no prototype or proof of concept, which means the runner had no example in hand. This is usually a red flag and signals that you shouldn’t join the group buy. You chose to take that risk.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0qjam wrote

You are completely right, I give you that. I chosed poor group buys - Zeal's Xeno, first GMK Dots, first Massdrop x T0mb3ry GMK Carbon, etc.
Can you give me an example of runners that sticked to their deadlines?

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Cobertt t1_iy0r0hy wrote

GMK generally doesn’t require prototypes because they already have the tooling. There aren’t very many through Covid, but that’s at no fault of the runners, pre Covid there definitely were GBs that stuck to their deadlines and estimates.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0rtt9 wrote

I will ask again, can you give me examples of runners that kept their deadlines?
From my experience, GMK group buys don't stick to their deadlines. I don't know if it's the manufacturer's fault or the runners but I blame the runner in the end because I am not buying keycaps from GMK. I buy them from the runner.

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Cobertt t1_iy0s9gp wrote

I’m not going through 10 years of GH posts. You’re buying them from a runner knowing they are at the mercy of GMK lead times. How are you going to blame the runner when GMK changes the deliverable time. That’s not the runners fault. You’re holding runners accountable for manufacturers short comings. It’s unreasonable.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0tiln wrote

I am not buying keycaps from GMK, do you understand that? :D I would bother GMK about not sending me my keycaps if I bought it from them.

> I’m not going through 10 years of GH posts.

You just admitted that you don't have any example on any input in this conversation any more. Thank you for the involvement.

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Cobertt t1_iy0u2g0 wrote

No you are buying understanding that the delivery of them is dependent on GMK’s ability to produce them. It’s an understood part of the hobby. Look at this link for a current gmk group buy. https://mechsandco.com/products/gb-gmk-beige-addon-extension

It states you understand that shipping is an estimate and can be extended. This is what you agree to when purchasing. There is even a whole section on group buys.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0u9z7 wrote

What's the point of giving a deadline then?

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Cobertt t1_iy0ud61 wrote

They give estimates not deadlines. You’re taking an estimate and applying the term deadline to it.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0vbv2 wrote

How much further is it ok to go from an estimate? Is one week ok? A month? A year? Or as experienced over two years?

−1

Cobertt t1_iy0vkbi wrote

That’s not my place to say. Obviously any delay is unacceptable for you, so you should stick to instock buys from now on. I’m fine waiting until the product is done right given that I get clear communication throughout the process.

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ThereminGoat t1_iy3t05i wrote

The molds for a single part of a switch, not the whole switch, is on a different order of magnitude of cost than you've identified here for an entire CNC machine. And for the record, I don't even make switches.

I would suggest some serious research into this topic before claiming you can fix a community that has managed this way for more than a decade now.

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QWERKey-UK t1_iy00zxq wrote

So what is your suggestion to alleviate this problem?

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy01cyu wrote

I would say we should collectively either only attend group buys from hosts that meet deadlines or we shouldn't attend any. At least that's what I am planning to do.

I only managed to hear that Keyrative is meeting their deadlines so far. I will be glad to learn about other sellers.

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doms_sebastiao t1_iy09hps wrote

What do you mean by keyreative meeting deadlines? They are behind production as much as gmk, or similar. Kat refined was delivery a few months ago, over 1 year after the ETA. Kat Atlantis and Explosion 2 years to ship, Kat Mizu is not even in production after more than 2 years...

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0ag6i wrote

A person named Fran on mykeyboard.eu discrord channel said they are meeting deadlines... I don't know what I should think about it now...

−11

MayAsWellStopLurking t1_iy2flol wrote

Thinking that Keyreative is meeting their deadlines purely based on the feedback from one vendor suggests you’re not applying sound assessment skills to the issue.

It’s also worth noting that you cited your personal GB track record as a sign of the issue. The plural of anecdote is not data. To that end, many GBs have successfully completed in time or are within schedule, but unless you’ve known to look out for them they ‘don’t count’ because they’re not your GB.

The Bear65 v2 GB was July 2022 with an estimated production time of 5 months; many buyers have units in hand, with more going out every day.

The other thing you’ve noticed that disproves your point is how many other items are no longer GB.

BadseedTech’s Tactile switch drop; DriftMechanics Austin, the majority of PBTFans first few sets, as well as NicePBT and many Novelkeys PBT sets.

There is change happening where some vendors are fronting costs and only announcing products when they’re ready to be sold, but because they’re ‘not a GB’ you don’t know the timeline of when the order was placed.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2qdlp wrote

> It’s also worth noting that you cited your personal GB track record as a sign of the issue. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Are you kidding me? :D If everybody was acting like you say, there would be no discussions on the internet XD
Are you suggesting that I should be happy about GB because some people got some of their GBs on time, while I didn't receive any of mine ever even close to the estimated deadline?

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MayAsWellStopLurking t1_iy34ql9 wrote

>Are you suggesting that I should be happy about GB because some people got some of their GBs on time, while I didn't receive any of mine ever even close to the estimated deadline?

I think you need to help separate the frustration with your bad GB experiences to help understand that there is more to a Good or Bad Group Buy than whether it's a Group Buy.

You've been asking for examples of other GBs that have gone off without a hitch or met deadlines. The Bear65 v2, Av4, Lumberjack, are examples of varying GBs (both big and small) that were successful. Why they didn't have delays may have more to do with who was running the GB (as well as what they were offering), and are demonstrations that the GB model isn't self-evidently bad; moreso that it works differently for switches, keyboards, and keycaps.

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QWERKey-UK t1_iy0d3i8 wrote

>I would say we should collectively either only attend group buys from hosts that meet deadlines

When you say "hosts", who exactly do you mean? The main vendor, or the manufacturer? You can't blame one for the shortcomings of the other.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0dq73 wrote

I'm taking about a person who had an idea, started the whole thing and is responsible for the undertaking. In a normal business if you are selling something, you are responsible for problems of your coworkers and manufacturers, not clients.

−1

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0hhs3 wrote

>I'm taking about a person who had an idea, started the whole thing and is responsible for the undertaking.

You can't really blame the designer for everything. If a manufacturer's lead times slip after the designer and vendor have submitted everything, then it's the manufacturer's fault. If delays are down to colour samples not being correct for example, that is nearly always the designer's fault. It depends what exactly caused the delay. It's not as simple as blaming the designer for everything, or the manufacturer for everything, or the lead vendor. Each GB that failed to meet a deadline needs to be assessed individually.

So... like I said, you can't blame one for the shortcomings of the other. For someone who has been around a while, you seem to be oversimplifying this.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0iekc wrote

Fair enough. I'd like to see any name of a chinese manufacturer here :D And what difference would it make for us. I only care about a name behind a GB and I don't care who the person works with. I compare it to literally everything else that I've ever bought, starting from iphone, ending on the village fair smoked ham. I am buying a product from one company/person and I don't care how much it fucked up it's work during process of making the thing I want to buy.
I just require professionalism from everybody, especially if they take my money.

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QWERKey-UK t1_iy0ja0w wrote

>I only care about a name behind a GB and I don't care who the person works with.

But that's unfair. Like I said, you may be blaming someone for something that has literally nothing to do with them. Seems to me like you just want someone to blame, and don't really care who. Seriously now, how can you blame a designer if a manu's lead times slip after the designer and lead vendor have done everything correctly? Conversely, how can you blame a manu, if the designer is an idiot and did all his renders using hex codes?

I am getting the impression that despite you saying you have been around a while, you don't actually know much about running a GB. Am I correct in this assumption?

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Tweetydabirdie t1_iy0lgp5 wrote

And that’s your issue right there. In a GB you aren’t buying a product the same way you are buying an iPhone or a smoked ham.

You are instead funding the production of the end product as a (small) partner in the endeavor. Meaning you get to take part in all the ups and downs of it, that the sellers of a product goes though. You aren’t buying an already manufactured product sitting on a shelf. And you knew that quite well walking into it.

So, adjust your expectations accordingly, and the problem is solved.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0ohqb wrote

I am not a partner, what are you even saying :D:D:D Nobody is. I would be a partner if I had a share if the profit and instead I am a client that takes a huge risk and a GB promoter is a person who takes all of the money (and of course puts work in design and "communication").
It's a mean thing to say to adjust my expectations. I won't ever settle for substandard.

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Tweetydabirdie t1_iy0qcts wrote

Well, call it something else if you prefer, and can find the ‘right’ word. What you a purchasing is a part of a production slot.

Yes, you are effectively taking part in the profit. Most things in a GB would have a much higher price unles it met a MOQ which requires either the GB or a full financing from a single backer taking all the risk and all the profit. Then it would still likely cost more, as that would in-fact be the profit for that backer.

Sure the designer/runner takes more of the profit on paper, but most of them do not accurately count their actual worked hours and if they did, the GB would in many cases be a net loss for them.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0raxx wrote

I would still like to know what's the percentage of the profit. What is the average income from a group buy, per keyboard? Do you know if any runner gave any post-mortem or post-success summary with values? I have a feeling that the only way of knowing how much you can profit is to run a GB by your own.

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Tweetydabirdie t1_iy2jewf wrote

Well, I haven’t run any GB’s since I myself have a few bad experiences participating. And don’t worry I will participate again, I just don’t want that responsibility that way.

I am however considering kickstarter/indiegogo for some projects as it’s a bit more ‘regulated’ and have done so for other unrelated projects, and I can tell you from that experience trying to make a budget, guess at half the costs, and get the price of the end product to a sane level that people can accept, set a timeline that won’t kill you from overworking yourself, that the overall profit if you actually count your hours as an employee or as a business owner would, it’s 100% guaranteed to be a loosing endeavor.

The ‘real’ profit is in you yourself getting whatever it is you funding most of the time. And I think that applies to a lot of GB runners.

There have been a few GB runners posting numbers in the past, and without remembering any specifics, the over all image is the same. At best they got the profit to cover their hours and perhaps a little on the top, most often not. Feel free to find the numbers and dispute me though, as it was a while back.

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QWERKey-UK t1_iy0l6mg wrote

The only concession I am prepared to make here, is that the designer (and GB runner) may be (and usually is) responsible for getting other worldwide vendors on board, and they may not choose wisely, but if there is a problem with one particular vendor, it doesn't necessarily follow that the entire GB is a car crash and buyers elsewhere may not even have a problem at all. Then in that instance, it's that one particular vendor that created an issue, not the designer.

There are just too many variables to say the designer (usually the person who advertises the GB and generates the interest through posts and social media awareness) can't always be the person who is to blame if something totally out of their control happens. From a legal point of view, the person ultimately responsible if it comes to refunds etc. would be the vendor you "bought" them from, and as most GBs have multiple vendors, even that is not as straightforward as you seem to be suggesting.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0nul3 wrote

All right, and I do go to the vendor in the end, but everybody is blurring the resposibility (vendor states that it is the group buy standard and it's up to the GB host), the GB runner says it's vendors and vendors... well they don't care because they don't have to.

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QWERKey-UK t1_iy0otfd wrote

After reading your other comments in other conversations in this thread, it's obvious you have literally no idea how all this works, and as is so common lately, you are just annoyed and angry that you can't buy these things as off the shelf, in stock products.

Group buys are what made this hobby. The alternative is to just let large companies with the capital to invest in mass production take over. That will not end well. It will kill all creativity as they seek low risk, high gain solutions, and only care about their bottom line. If you want an example of that in reality, then look no further than the "gaming" peripheral market where all the keyboards are the same, and there is little to no creativity or variety to be seen. Why do you think THAT is? Hmm? It's because the lowest risk, and highest gains are to be had by pandering to the lowest common denominator, and having an advertising budget massive enough to convince kids that that's what they really need. The quality of the products are awful as well.

So, be careful what you wish for, as you just might get it.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0p478 wrote

I could say the same about you, that you have no idea how the business and the manufacturing industry works in general. How would you feel?
I know exactly how it works as I am manufacturing items on a big and startup scale.
Don't be a jerk and stop projecting your insecurities on other people.

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QWERKey-UK t1_iy0rs40 wrote

>I could say the same about you

You could, but it would be unfounded.

>that you have no idea how the business and the manufacturing industry works in general.

I know that the volumes involved in custom keycap sales is not sufficient to sustain the kind of manufacturing you are talking about. This is backed up by facts. Every (properly run) group buy thread in Geekhack is updated regularly with sales figures, and we know precisely how most keycap sets sell. If you could be bothered researching this before you decided to wade in with damp powder, you would have realised this. It's a niche market. You seem to think that it's possible to just make container loads of these things and sell them. It's unrealistic, as almost every other respondent in this thread is also telling you. I know how much it costs to make the molds for double shot novelties... do you? I know how much it costs to develop and design a keycap set properly... I mean the personal investment to the designer. Do you? I know how much the vendors pay GMK (for example) and how much profit is made by both the vendors and the designers... do you? Everything you are suggesting is unrealistic. A really successful keycap group buy sells around two to three thousand units (and were talking about the big hitters here), including extras. This is publicly available data, should you be bothered to confirm it. The market for what you suggest is just not there. The only time it is tenable, is when a set has already proven itself to be popular, in which case other rounds are run, or in some cases, a large vendor, such as Drop will make a deal with the designer, and offer them as an in stock option, and only because they can be far more confident that larger quantities will sell... and even THEN, the numbers involved are small when compared to stuff sold to the wider, more general markets such as the gaming market.

>I know exactly how it works as I am manufacturing items on a big and startup scale.

Then why are you failing to understand, despite being told by multiple sources, why you are wrong?

>Don't be a jerk and stop projecting your insecurities on other people.

What insecurities? I'm supplying you with facts.. easily verified facts. You refuse to even acknowledge that you could possibly be wrong though, let alone verify the facts you are being given. Everything you are saying is based purely on your opinion, and backed up by precisely zero facts.

Are group buys perfect? No.

Can they be improved? Probably.

Are they essential to maintain the autonomy and creative nature of this hobby? Fuck yes!

Should we get rid of them? Not until you, or anyone else comes up with a better model that allows us, as members of this community to design and make reality the keyboards and accessories we actually want.

Will big business with lots of cash to invest give us that? No. Of course not.

Do you actually have any real, workable solutions? No.

Are you just bitching because you have to wait for these crowd funded, low production run, bespoke products to be made because you entered into them with the same attitude as you would have had buying something off Amazon? Yes.

Should you just stay away from group buys? Probably.

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hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0tc3n wrote

>I know how much it costs to make the molds for double shot novelties... do you? I know how much it costs to develop and design a keycap set properly... I mean the personal investment to the designer. Do you? I know how much the vendors pay GMK (for example) and how much profit is made by both the vendors and the designers... do you?

Are you going to tell some solid numbers or are you going to just respond with empty arguments?

> why are you failing to understand, despite being told by multiple sources, why you are wrong?

Because reddit "anonymous" coommenters are not a source of truth to me? :D If there would be a group buy runner or a vendor replying I would take it under consideration. As far as I know, everybody commenting is just as far as a buyer.

> Everything you are saying is based purely on your opinion, and backed up by precisely zero facts.

Fair enough. It's just my opinion and experience and I never stated the opposite.

>Do you actually have any real, workable solutions? No.

Yes, I stated them in my original post and comments.

>Are you just bitching because you have to wait for these crowd funded, low production run, bespoke products are made because you entered into them with the same attitude as you would have as buying something off Amazon? Yes.

Yes, because I paid for a product and I didn't receive it. Simple as that.

>Should you just stay away from group buys? Probably.

For sure I won't attend any more group buys (after attending 9). Should you improve not being bitchy to people? Also yes.

1

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0vqzp wrote

>Are you going to tell some solid numbers or are you going to just respond with empty arguments?

If you mean am I going to spoon feed you? No. The facts are all there to be found should you wish to find them. If you want to know more, then I suggest you frequent the Discord servers of the main vendors, designers and manufacturers and talk to them, or at least just read what others are discussing. Use Geekhack as a resource for information, not Reddit.

​

>Because reddit "anonymous" coommenters are not a source of truth to me?

Yet you keep asking me for more truth... on Reddit? LOL. Take the advice in the above paragraph, and spend some time talking to people who you can trust more then, and actually learn about a subject before you condemn it. Please... don't take my word for it. I wouldn't want you to. I'd rather you actually learn more actually. Geekhack, and Discord are where you will get this mostly publicly disseminated information. You will find that vendors and many manufacturers are quite open to discuss most things if you join their Discords. Designers with experience are often quite open to discuss what their processes entailed, and how much they were paid, and how much GMK charge. Has it ever occurred to you to do this and pose your questions directly to those who design stuff, and those that market it, and ultimately, those that make it? I suspect it never occurred to you at all. Did it occur to you that those responding to you in this thread have? Judging by how you react to what they are telling you, I suspect that would be no as well.

There are no dark, mysterious secrets. This entire hobby is mostly community driven. Much information is readily available, and most are willing to share that information if it helps others who are interested in getting stuff made.

​

>Should you improve not being bitchy to people?

Should you make posts where you condemn things you know little about? What do you think?

0

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0x67b wrote

>I'd rather you actually learn more actually. Geekhack, and Discord are where you will get this mostly publicly disseminated information.

Eh, the discrod that just informed me that Keyrative had no delays so far? You are right about the reddit help in this matter.

>I suspect it never occurred to you at all.

You know what? It did and I did contact people who designed things I bought. You are very presumptuous, do you know that mf?

​

>Did it occur to you that those responding to you in this thread have?

You and the other guy ? XD

>Should you make posts where you condemn things you know little about? What do you think?

I have all the right to say what I think about venture I attend

0

QWERKey-UK t1_iy0zkap wrote

>I have all the right to say what I think about venture I attend

As do people have the right to challenge it, and in this case, with good reason. No one is saying group buys are perfect, but all the people who moan about them always fail to offer a workable alternative. They just moan about it. It's tiresome. Some group buys are awful, some are fine. You know what, some products made by large companies are fucking awful as well. Car manufacturers sometimes make things that kill people. Boeing made a plane that literally nose dived out of the fucking sky, just because they were scared of putting off buyers by telling them that their pilots would need retraining. If you think handing all of this over to big business will solve issues, you are deluded. Stuff goes wrong, but unless you can offer some real, tangible alternatives, you are not helping. What needs to actually happen is better communication between all concerned parties, and better dissemination of information to group buy participants. That I will grant you, but all I hear lately is group buys are something that need to be got rid of, that they are broken, and that we need stuff to be in stock blah blah cackababble.... and that really would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you fail to understand why that is, then you need to have a think about what it actually is that made you want to take part in this hobby in the first instance. I bet it wasn't off the shelf products you could buy in stock. I bet it was the cool group buy custom stuff. Well... if we, as community members want to get the stuff we actually want made, and sold to other community members, all under our control without selling out to companies that will just milk us for profit, then we need to raise the money ourselves. The minute we stop doing that, then more and more we will see this hobby slide towards the same, turgid mediocrity that is prevalent in other comparative markets. Why you, or anyone else who is interested in custom products wants that, is fucking beyond me.

0

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2qwox wrote

> but all the people who moan about them always fail to offer a workable alternative. They just moan about it. It's tiresome.

It's not up to me to offer an alternative. If I was running a GB it would be a different situation.

> If you think handing all of this over to big business will solve issues, you are deluded.

I don't appreciate you calling me names. It's rude.

> Why you, or anyone else who is interested in custom products wants that, is fucking beyond me.

I think you need to chill and open your mind a bit.

0

QWERKey-UK t1_iy2reev wrote

>It's not up to me to offer an alternative. If I was running a GB it would be a different situation.

Which implies you do in fact have an alternative. What is it? You're not running a GB though, are you. You wouldn't know where to start.

I didn't call you a name. Deluded is an adjective.

​

>I think you need to chill and open your mind a bit.

To what? You are offering nothing to be open about. You're just moaning and telling us big companies with loads of money should step in. We all know how that will end. We just need to look at the gaming peripheral market where that has already happened. Is that what you want? Is it?

1

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2rqv1 wrote

>Which implies you do in fact have an alternative. What is it?

No it doesn't.

>I didn't call you a name. Deluded is an adjective.

If I say you are acting like a moron, I don't call you names, it's just an adjective?

1

QWERKey-UK t1_iy2s2nb wrote

>No it doesn't.

yes it does. You said if you were running a GB it would be a different situation. So how would it be different?

>If I say you are acting like a moron, I don't call you names, it's just an adjective?

Correct. It's an insult, or in your case, a description, not a name. Always be correct.

0

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2sopr wrote

> yes it does. You said if you were running a GB it would be a different situation. So how would it be different?

It would be a different situation, because it that case I would be obliged to provide a good service. But I am not running a GB so it's not my problem.

>Correct. It's an insult, or in your case, a description, not a name. Always be correct.

Then I would call you a hypocrite

1

Kresterz t1_iy48zhy wrote

Want to give us a list of the manufacturing of products you've done then?

And if you have done manufacturing then why don't you set up something for keyboards since you clearly will be more reliable and better at it than the already existing keyboard manufacturing competition?

1

Temanyl t1_iy069ii wrote

The lulu from boardsource Was also pretty much on time.

5

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy08eyx wrote

Thanks for the example!
It's a good looking keyboard. How different is it from Lily?

−2

Temanyl t1_iy09aje wrote

I don't know exactly. Never really looked into the lily. I think they have a similar PCB and both are fitting the lulu case. I don't know if the lily Supports the rotary encoders or if it just uses Themen spot for a switch.

3

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy09pgw wrote

Lily does indeed support rotary encoders (at least newer versions). I think that's it's just a modern "available" alternative

−1

crwdcntrl t1_iy0ausl wrote

Things have not gotten better with Covid lock downs, supply chain issues, and shipping cost volatility. In fact, I would wager that some of the GB hosts are using it as an excuse for their lack of project management skills. I follow RAMA works' Instagram and most of their posts are lousy with GB buyers asking for a status update on their purchase (some a year or more old). And not surprisingly, RAMA just flat out ignores their plead for an update.

6

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0b810 wrote

Good example. Big name (like Zeal) and a service/managing quality that a vegetable stand lady would laugh at.

0

crwdcntrl t1_iy0egx6 wrote

it's really disheartening to see. GB as a concept works really well for both the producer and the buyer. Shared risk means more innovative and unique products will be able to see production. I just HATE the hosts with "It's GB. You knew what you were getting into, bro." Someone should do a quantitative study on the rate of success and failures on GBs.

1

Fluid_Stand9699 t1_iy1hdks wrote

Look, I don't get why when everyone complains about GB deadlines, no one proposes an efficient and optimized solution to it. Everyone already is dealing with the same issues as you. Complaining about a problem doesn't help fix the issue. At this point, quit complaining about it on the internet and do something to fix it. Propose a solution that would hold manufacturers and GB runners accountable or something. I would love to have someone prove me wrong and fix this group buy deadline issue because at this point it doesn't seem likely that people will. Literally complaining about them doesn't do anything.

4

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2q0qa wrote

First of all I did propose a solution :)
Second of all, it's not up to me to fix it. Runners or companies that create group buys should. I am already paying money for somebody to figure it out for me. If I want to give money and solutions, I will be better off making my own creation for myself only.

−2

TimbersawDust t1_iy3w3hp wrote

While I understand your frustration, "picking them better" is just not a good solution. Until there are manufacturers with better QC and a passable overall product, we are stuck. Runners and/or companies that you speak of are not the problem here.

1

Fluid_Stand9699 t1_iy4b8ud wrote

See this is what most confuses me. What should you propose that runners or companies do as a decision making standpoint that offers a scaleable option to improve the timeline of meeting deadlines while also maintaining the same level of quality and service? Proposing the idea that they should just “work harder” to meet the deadlines is not a solution, it is just complaining about the issue. Let’s say you were doing this as a GB runner or manufacturer, what would you do to improve your production level to meet client’s deadlines and expectations? You say yourself “no GB host knows what he/she is doing and we should pick them better”. Going by that logic, if no one knows what they are doing, well, what would you tell them so that they understand what they should do to meet deadlines? Again, prove me wrong by drawing up a scalable solution that companies can implement so that all companies can meet the deadlines they set.

1

Ascend_Didact_ t1_iy2a39z wrote

At this point, I give them the money and wait for either… My keycaps to come in Or the letter about the class action lawsuit

1

final_Rush01 t1_iy2ffxw wrote

Just to make sure I got this right, if I want to build a keyboard I(;et use me as an example) can ask the people of Reddit will give me the funds. And I have to do is show them the process and the finished Keyboard (KB). If so, I got a few questions/problems like Would I have to pay them back, or how can The people know that I won't scam them or something.

​

the following question is directed at you u/hiszpanskiinkwizytor, if I got this right idea in mind why would you have had all these problems with group buys (GB) in the past why would you repeatedly participate in these GB?

1

hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy2q6m4 wrote

> in the past why would you repeatedly participate in these GB?

Not any more. I participated in the last GB over a year ago and it will be the last one unless something really big will come up like Model F was

1

MayAsWellStopLurking t1_iy35taw wrote

If you're easily drawn back into a GB because of what the project is, rather than who's running it, what their track record is, how viable the keyboard product actually is to reproduce, then you're easily at risk of having another bad GB experience.

3

Awkward_Excuse_9228 t1_iy3be2m wrote

I suggest gaining perspective from how other enthusiast communities handle GBs. Anything like Pens, flashlights, guitar pickups etc. Maybe not retro tech, because they also have issues with timely delivery.

Because you wont know for sure if the replies you get are by people involved in the GB. Or simply people that were equally screwed over projecting their cope.

1

Funny-Temperature897 t1_iy1l0ju wrote

I hate GMK (bleh!), regardless of group-buy-time, if that helps. Don’t get me started on that monstrosity that was the attempt at Space Cadet. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

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