Alice Layout seems poorly thought out?

Submitted by Jazzlike_Spite2458 t3_zw9yyu in MechanicalKeyboards

I got an Alice style keyboard and after a few days I realized there seem to be some nonsensical things about it:

- The number '6' is on the left side. The reason this is an issue is because standard touch-typing technique is to hit the number '6' with the right hand. Therefore, it would make more sense if the '6' were positioned on the right side of the Alice layout.

- The second letter 'B' the right side. The reason this is an issue is because standard touch-typing technique is to hit the letter 'B' with the left hand. Therefore, it does not make sense to have second 'B' on the right side.

- The bottom (spacebar) row seems to be arbitrary in how the keys are arranged. There is a mismatch of key sizes (and empty spaces) between the left side and right side of the keyboard on my Alice keyboard and others. There does not seem to be much consistency, unlike a regular bottom row on most 60% keyboards.

It almost seems to me that this layout was put together by some sort of mechanical keyboard hipster who chose form over function when designing this layout. It would have made more sense to take a standard 60% layout and simply split in two with a split spacebar and not have an awkward '6' and second 'B'. As it is now, it is kind of disappointing and wacky.

Anyone else have similar thoughts?

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Mazarine_Marjolaine t1_j1ulwbx wrote

There are variations in the Alice layout. You might have to look around for one that suits you. Some have the extra 'B' (an abomination) and some don't. There is some difference in the placement of the right space bar too (some keebs have it flush with the 'N' which is too far right for me). The '6' placement is a valid point. Even though I learned on typewriters, that doesn't bother me because I never got the hang of the number row. Don't get me started on the Alice variants that have the right shift to the right of the arrow cluster.

I've been pretty happy with keebs based on the Fate-Nozomi layout (like Nico & Steph or YMDK wings).

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Jazzlike_Spite2458 OP t1_j1uqyk4 wrote

Yeah, I've seen some pics of layouts without the second 'B'. The second 'B' should have never been a 'feature' on any of them. And yeah, some of those layouts scream "mech hipster"!

Somebody just needs to make an Alice 2.0 layout with the things I mentioned and it will be a lot better I think.

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1xonlu wrote

>The second 'B' should have never been a 'feature' on any of them

Wow... you some kind of typing nazi? LOL. Loads of people type B with the right hand. This idea that there's only one way to type is just a bit silly. I type C with my left index instead of left middle. It makes no difference whatsoever. I may even be a better typist than you for all you know. These are custom boards. You don't have to have the second B - just map is as something else and fit another keycap. It's not like there's a key missing or anything.

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day_li_ly t1_j1xcbbi wrote

if I like a new thing then it's cool, if I don't like it then it's hipster

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jishjash t1_j1wb55f wrote

I think it's actually very well thought out. Look at a non-Alice layout keyboard with your hands resting in the "home" position and you'll notice:

  • The number '6' is closer to the left-hand side (from the F key in home position)
  • The letter 'B' is dead center between the home position keys for your index fingers (the F & J keys)

"Standard touch-typing technique" isn't doctrine and the best touch typing is efficient and feels comfortable for you and your hands. I type 'B' with my right hand and it literally makes no difference as far as reach for either index finger.

The main point of the Alice layout, though, isn't faster/more efficient typing. It's for improved ergonomics on your wrists and hands. Hence the bottom row's keys are more comfortably sized and laid out for your thumbs being in a more naturally turned position.

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day_li_ly t1_j1xc22w wrote

This makes a lot of sense. Personally I never touch typed the numbers, and which hand is used for B could be largely dependent on right/left-handedness, habit, and what word you're typing at the moment.

>It's for improved ergonomics on your wrists and hands

This could be a point but I really think most people just buy alice boards because they look cool (they do).

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[deleted] t1_j1wdly9 wrote

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Cobertt t1_j1x49j5 wrote

As someone who teaches technology you are wrong. There is no touch typing standard. Obviously the majority of keys have specific touch typing rules. All of the programs I’ve reviewed for our school district (6 or 7) all of them taught b as an either hand key and the vast majority taught 6 as a left hand press. So it sounds like you really don’t know what you are talking about. But what else is new looking at every one of your posts :).

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Ashtoruin t1_j1uii85 wrote

Yeah. I've never liked Alice Keyboards. Not gonna shame people for liking them but I've always wondered why you wouldn't just go full split ergo instead.

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Jazzlike_Spite2458 OP t1_j1us0j8 wrote

I understand the appeal of them from an ease of use perspective: both 'halves' are on one deck which makes transport and alignment (no need because they are always aligned) easier.

Somebody ought to standardize an Alice 2.0 layout with the things I mentioned and it will be a lot better I think.

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Relevant_Desk_6891 t1_j1vul9x wrote

Classic feminine thinking, assuming you know better than professional keyboard makers

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Ghee_buttersnaps4 t1_j1whyat wrote

HAHAHHA I was actually looking for a way to throw that “feminine thinking” line back at them too. Yours is much better though, I couldn’t think of anything that isn’t detrimental to women which isn’t my intention.

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1xr801 wrote

>Somebody ought to standardize an Alice 2.0 layout

Like we keep saying.... no one is stopping you. Put your money where your mouth is... or is that some kind of "feminine thinking"?

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nurnadiaaaaaa t1_j1upj8h wrote

which keyboards don’t have the features stated above?

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Jazzlike_Spite2458 OP t1_j1uqg8q wrote

I'm not an expert on Alice variations, but I have seen some without the second 'B', but I think all of them had the '6' on the left side. The bottom rows seem to be different on every one depending on who is making them.

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1xoc4t wrote

>" The second letter 'B' the right side. The reason this is an issue is because standard touch-typing technique is to hit the letter 'B' with the left hand. Therefore, it does not make sense to have second 'B' on the right side. "

Not everyone types the same way, and many people type B with their right index finger, so that's why some have two B keys. these are custom boards, so you can have whatever you want in that position, and if you look at enough boards, you will see many do not have the second B there.

As for the 6, it's just for aesthetics... which I admit, is not where it should be technically, but most people who need to touchtype numbers quickly and frequently would just use a numpad. I only actually use the number keys casually if I need to write the occasional number is an otherwise text heavy piece. For data entry, or spreadsheet use etc, I will use a numpad. I never bothered to learn touchtyping for the number row (apart from the commonly used modifiers)... it just didn't seem important.... just use a numpad... I mean, that's what they're for :) Also... 6 is closer to the left hand than right, so the "correct" way to type 6 is actually fucking stupid.

[edit] I'd hate to see this guy with 40s LOL

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polymorphic2346 t1_j1umgi2 wrote

Thanks for these thoughts, they'll help me buy the right keyboard. :) Though this reddit is making me wonder if I should just mod my own if I'm going to be this persnickety. 👀 I didn't even know that was a thing! Anyway I need an ergo of some sort and this helps me a bit when considering Alice.

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Jazzlike_Spite2458 OP t1_j1uql0z wrote

No problem! Somebody just needs to make an Alice 2.0 layout with the things I mentioned and it will be a lot better I think.

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1xq6de wrote

>No problem! Somebody just needs to make an Alice 2.0 layout with the things I mentioned

Get on with it then. This is what this hobby is about... this is how it all began: People wanting things that no one made, so we made our own. Stop whining and get designing.

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aimingsashimig t1_j1us0wt wrote

I don't think having extra keys is ever a problem, at the very least. As someone who touch types incorrectly, I only use the b on the right side, so I set the left b to something else (a key I needed because it's in Japanese layouts but missing in ANSI ones). I've seen alice layouts both with and without it, so the fact that so many group buys and manufacturers include a second b tells me I'm not alone in wanting it.

If anything, I think the way to fix issues would just be adding more additional keys. Looking at some non-alice split keyboards, I see designs with 6 on the right and with 6 the left, so I'm sure there are people doing both of those as well. It seems that different countries teach different hands for typing that particular key, too. If there was a way to put a 6 on both sides, that would help more people use the keyboard.

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[deleted] t1_j1utox2 wrote

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Grav33 t1_j1v1ihe wrote

What a weird comment.

> See this is the overly feminine way of thinking that ruins normal things for mankind.

How is their way of thinking "overly feminine"? Why ascribe gender to a non-gendered thought pattern? And to insinuate that things being feminized ruins things makes it sound like you have some bias against women.

>No, there is standard way of touch typing on a QWERTY style layout; it is the same worldwide

Also you know there are non-QWERTY layouts people use for typing.

> People need to stop being lazy and learn proper touch-typing.

Why do you care how anyone other than you types? Is it ruining your life if some people hunt and peck?

Some people are physically incapable of touch typing due to nerve damage, or other mitigating factors that you don't seem to care to understand, or even consider a factor.

We are a niche hobby. We should strive to be an inclusive space where people are free to do what they want, and encourage those that want to join us to do so. Not gatekeep based on WPM, or how perfect some ones typing mechanics are.

I have no alice boards, but I'm sure the original designer created a product that suited their needs and others have adapted it to suit their own. I would encourage you to do the same rather than yelling into the void that is the internet.

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MayAsWellStopLurking t1_j1vnfkj wrote

If some dude considers ‘feminine thinking’ detrimental to mankind when it comes to a keyboard layout you best believe I want to gatekeep the fuck out of them from this hobby.

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[deleted] t1_j1vqz38 wrote

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Cobertt t1_j1x2noj wrote

Holy fuck you are toxic. There is no place for shitty misogynists here. Take your trash back to Andrew Tate’s comment section.

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1xqybi wrote

"feminine thinking" LOL Dear oh dear.... Yeah... who needs that feminine thinking... sheesh.. I mean, what did women ever give the world, right?

{invitation to start a Python "Roman sketch" thread}

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Tyler_P07 t1_j1v9m92 wrote

See this is the overly smooth brained way of thinking that ruins these hobbies for everyone.

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Ghee_buttersnaps4 t1_j1wia8f wrote

You should get up off your ass and get to work on that Alice 2.0 design you keep talking about then. Lazy fucks that just talk shit, insult others, and do nothing about the issues that THEY are complaining about are the absolute worst!

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[deleted] t1_j1usi5k wrote

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iLike80sRock t1_j1vfsp4 wrote

All splits I’ve ever seen have 6 on the left side.

Most 60% keyboards have different amount of keys /space from left to right, as well.

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1xrdq0 wrote

That's because it makes far more sense, because it's closer to the left hand than the right. The "correct" fingering for six is just stupid and makes no sense.

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helmsmagus t1_j1w08vr wrote

Alice is a shit layout, but your criticism is extremely arbitrary.

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lhdrive t1_j1wmis9 wrote

The number 6 is a left hand button in touch typing

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1xrgg9 wrote

Technically, it's not if you look at the "correct" way to touchtype... but it is stupid, so just ignore it.

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tfptfp t1_j1yoqlg wrote

Defining "correct" touch typing is country dependant btw. While in the US it is often teached with hitting the 6 right handed, it is in Germany "correctly" teached to hit the 6 left handed... there are both schools. Both are correct.

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QWERKey-UK t1_j1ypie4 wrote

I'm assuming English. As I said though... there's no real correct way to type. What works for you, works for you.

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ejjVAL t1_j1wug7w wrote

It is...

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