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Airwolf_BDTW t1_je6yjvj wrote

In American "first wave" punk: Dead Kennedy's, Black Flag, and Fugazi all have an argument, IMO.

If we include English punk, probably lots.

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Trobus t1_je71bia wrote

Wouldn’t first wave punk be Ramones, Patti Smith, The Voidoids, and Television? Fugazi didn’t even form till ‘86.

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Airwolf_BDTW t1_je728tl wrote

I don't want to get into the tedious genre debates, but I personally think of Television as "proto-punk".

In terms of the timelines, first wave English punk is basically 1976-1980 in my mind. Punk was basically over in England when the 80s got going.

When it comes to American punk rock, I think of the first wave as extending out to around the mid-80s. I will readily admit to not being a big Fugazi guy, so I wasn't aware they had formed that late.

This is all quite subjective and IMO only.

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Accurate-Witness-446 t1_je7agdr wrote

I think the whole English punk thing was Malcolm McLaren recreating what he first saw in New York. Punk there transitioned into hardcore thanks to the Bad Brains.

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Airwolf_BDTW t1_je7gpan wrote

That seems pretty unfairly reductive to me. McLaren was obviously hugely influential via the Pistols, but there was a lot more to the English punk scene than just one band that was together for less than three years.

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Trobus t1_je7eskx wrote

Although I disagree and think that the California hardcore thing is more of a second wave, you’re entitled to your opinion, and totally valid, but why is Television seen as a proto-punk band? Not just from you, have seen it mentioned before. They were very much apart of the original New York thing, started around the same time as those other bands, Marquee Moon wasn’t released until 77’, wouldn’t they need to be, like, before the thing to be proto, not during?

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Title26 t1_je7oz81 wrote

It all gets rather complicated because the shift from the first "punk" bands to offshoots in hardcore and post-punk and metal subgernre all happened in a very short span. The Ramones first album came out in 1976 and within the span of just a few years, "punk" had already taken many new forms. Hell, Pere Ubu was making "post-punk" in the late 70s before some albums we would consider classics of the punk genre even came out (The Modern Dance predates London Calling by a year and their first single in 1975 predates even the Ramones). Black Flag had already pioneered LA hardcore and then put out the first Sludge Metal album in 1984 while many hardcore bands were just getting started, and a couple years prior, bands like Minutemen and Squirrel Bait were starting "post-hardcore" while at the same time Bad Brains were putting out classics of regular old hardcore.

All that is to say, new genres were starting before their "predecessors" had stopped developing. I'd agree with you that Television isn't proto-punk. It's post-punk, even though it came out during punks heyday. It all changed so fast it kind of blends. Which is why it's easier to classify based on sound than time.

I would consider The Modern Lovers self titled album to be proto-punk even though it came out in 1976, the same year as the Ramones self titled (a true "punk" album) and the same year as early Pere Ubu stuff ("post punk").

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