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Laethettan t1_j1zguvb wrote

Reply to comment by Opus-the-Penguin in Wiil CD's make a comeback like Vinyl? by trukises

False.. about almost everything. Vinyl has a distortion present that adds warmth.. the 'necessary' compression is not necessary because that is one of the points of hi fi vinyl, it has dynamic range. And the crackle from dust on your record is not desirable hence why you actually brush the dust off and store them in anti-static sleeves ;)

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appleburger17 t1_j205o9a wrote

I agree with most of what you're saying but one of the places CDs actually do improve upon vinyl is dynamic range. CDs do, as a fact, have more dynamic range potential than vinyl. A vinyl record's dynamic range is determined by the difference between its shallowest and deepest part of a groove. So its limited by how deeply you can cut the groove into the master lacquer. Since its a physical medium there is a limitation of dynamic range based on how deep you can cut groove before meeting in the middle from the other side or compromising structural integrity. Your statements and illustrations about bit & sample rate are still valid and an argument for why vinyl, despite its limited dynamic range, can still be a high quality alternative to CD.

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Opus-the-Penguin t1_j1zhwbj wrote

LOL ok. Distortion is desirable. Got it. Look, I could take state of the art sound equipment and make a recording of a vinyl LP. I could then play back the LP itself and the digital recording for you in an audiophile listening room. You would not be able to tell the difference. If distortion is desirable for "warmth", distortion can be added to a digital recording. Most people know better than to desire that.

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Laethettan t1_j1zkszr wrote

Well, if someone prefers vinyl because of the warmth it's the natural distortion of the Format. So yes I find it desirable. Keep speaking from ignorance ;)

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[deleted] t1_j1zsrww wrote

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PossibilitySuperb465 t1_j1zza1c wrote

lol you are so impassioned about this, but tell me, what is the bitrate of tape or vinyl?

Analog media is not directly comparable to digital formats, and in a sense all digital formats are lossy by comparison. Just as film (read: tape; analog) can be used to produce 4k versions of film (state of the art digital format) where as DVD (old digital; highly compressed; lossy) cannot, tape can be used to produce the highest possible quality transfer to CDs (old digital; lossy but usually acceptable/inaudible) and even higher bitrate formats; or vinyl. Vinyl does have distortion, and particularly it can degrade over time, but any digital transfer was lossy (in a different way; it is subtractive) to begin with.

And yes, any additive modification of the source audio by the media itself is basically a form of distortion, but people have long preferred tube amps due to their distortion properties, which are frequently very pleasing even on settings that sound very "clean". It simply adds character--but if you want to be more of an engineer about it, it adds characteristics to the wave forms it produces or records.

So anyway, I'm not really persuaded by your "audio quality is objective" argument. Resolution is objective, but not always comparable between media... so not a very good way of comparing things, obviously.

In conclusion, there were some very good machines which we now consider old. They are still very good, especially in certain aesthetic ways.

Do I own a record player? No. It's expensive and wasteful and silly in my opinion. But there are differences and I wouldn't begrudge anyone that hobby if they have the time and money for it.

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JHDarkLeg t1_j20l4ze wrote

>all digital formats are lossy by comparison

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem

Digital isn't lossy within the Nyquist bandwidth, it's mathematically provable. CDs do not utilize lossy compression algorithms like DVDs do.

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PossibilitySuperb465 t1_j20nu4e wrote

That's really interesting, but is that the same as saying audio "quality" won't benefit from a higher sample rate? I actually can't tell from reading it. It seems like it establishes a minimum sample rate sufficient for reproduction of the wave form, but there is still interpolation occurring in the process, which seems to imply higher rates may impact the result to me.

My point was that analog media are not constructed of data points at all, which remains true, but I'm interested to understand more, as you are correct that CDs are *not* directly comparable to DVDs in terms of using lossy compression.

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JHDarkLeg t1_j20q9mb wrote

A higher sampling rate will capture a larger frequency range, but it won't improve the sound quality within that range.

The interpolation you mention is called quantization error, caused by having to use discrete steps rather than an infinitely analog level. Quantization error effects the maximum dynamic range of the recording. A 16-bit CD has a dynamic range of 96dB vs about 70dB for vinyl.

Analog media does have it's own "data points" as well. The size of the magnetic particles on tape or the size of vinyl that is required to still be strong enough to not break when in contact with the stylus. It's harder to measure but it's there.

Regarding compression, CDs do not use lossy compression whereas DVDs use MPEG2 lossy compression.

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PossibilitySuperb465 t1_j20t087 wrote

>Analog media does have it's own "data points" as well. The size of the magnetic particles on tape or the size of vinyl that is required to still be strong enough to not break when in contact with the stylus. It's harder to measure but it's there.

Do you know if it tends to be more or less information than a digital transfer of the same material on CD?

Half-baked thought: I wonder if there is any audible characteristic to regularity/irregularity of information density on a media. Like I assume CDs would be very regular, where as tape may actually be inconsistent in this respect.

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PossibilitySuperb465 t1_j20qxzl wrote

Sorry, intended to agree with you about CDs/DVDs using compression/not using compression. Edited my previous post to fix the typo.

In terms of capture, missing a frequency range sounds like it compromises 'fidelity' in some audible sense if those ranges are indeed audible--all of this as compared with analog media.

Simply asked: Is it possible that someone could hear and prefer/dislike the sound of audio recorded at above the threshold described by the nyquist theorem?

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appleburger17 t1_j206gvu wrote

What measures of "higher audio quality" are you choosing to make this determination? Because in some ways vinyl is absolutely higher quality (the fact that digital creates non-perfect approximations of an analog source and is then limited by a bit and sample rate, a lowly 16bit 44.1kHz for CD) and in other ways CD is higher (dynamic range potential). A lossless digital file played through a high quality DAC has the dynamic range advantage with digital coding that is a much closer representation of an analog source than a CD.

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Fluffy_Little_Fox t1_j20ekjy wrote

Is a JPEG or a PNG ~less~ of a Static Visual Image than something like an old-school Polaroid Picture??? One is digital, the other is traditional / analogue. But both are "images."

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Fluffy_Little_Fox t1_j20f41b wrote

Why did Captain Sisko even WANT the stupid old baseball, when he could have just told the Replicator to make him one just as easily as it was making Picard's Earl Gray Tea, or Janeway's coffee????

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appleburger17 t1_j20fauh wrote

Assuming you mean to say "less quality" rather than just "less of a static visual image" (since something is either a static image or is not so cannot be less or more without introducing a measure of quality), you haven't provided enough information to answer this question. Which signals to me you don't understand the technology well enough to hold this conversation in an intelligent way.

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Fluffy_Little_Fox t1_j20g8xi wrote

Is a digital picture not a picture because it's digital????

If you have a fancy digital camera that's rated for a crazy amount of Mega Pixels, you would still prefer an analogue camera from the 70s or 80s????

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appleburger17 t1_j20i2sy wrote

You keep coming so close to the point without even realizing it only to set up some other random unrelated thought full of a whole new set of problems.

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Fluffy_Little_Fox t1_j20k5pi wrote

Yeah. It's called ADHD.

HOLY SHIT, LOOK AT THAT SQUIRREL!!! I'M GUNNA CHASE IT UP THAT TREE!! YUH-HUH, YUH-HUH!!! YUP!!! IMA GUNNA GIT'EM!!!

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Fluffy_Little_Fox t1_j20gnvl wrote

Do you prefer your movies to be on old-school 8mm Film?

Is DVD or Blue Ray just too mainstream and plebeian for you??

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[deleted] t1_j214d51 wrote

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appleburger17 t1_j21ckru wrote

I have a degree in audio engineering and have worked in recording studios and live sound reinforcement for decades. Sorry if “do your own Google research” doesn’t cut it for me.

It is a fact, which you can Google if you’d like, that digital audio (CD) is an approximation of an analog source. The quality of that approximation is most often determined and measured in bit rate and sample rate. The higher the bit and sample rate the higher quality and closer it gets to its analog source which has no such limitation. By that measure, vinyl can be higher quality. It is a more exact representation of the source.

It is also a fact, again goggleable, that CD’s dynamic range potential is higher than vinyl. In that measure, CDs can be higher quality.

Which is why I asked what measure you were using to make your case. Unfortunately, you can’t answer with anything but “google it”.

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[deleted] t1_j21h8p4 wrote

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appleburger17 t1_j21wwyj wrote

Never, in the history of recorded music, has it been commonplace to make original recordings on vinyl. Again, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

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BoneyDanza t1_j229ep8 wrote

No dude, tiny metal needles are MUCH more sensitive than the lasers /s 😆🤣😂😆😂

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BoneyDanza t1_j229293 wrote

Hi! I'm an audiophile that's been breaking/repairing guitars and amps for over 15 years, and studied recording technology for 2 years.

In science terms, what is "warmth" if not distortion? I'm serious. Define warmth as logically as possible.

CDs have not only more dynamic range, they have more frequency range as well.

Optical lasers and microscopic nano dots are more precise than mechanical metal and vinyl. Moisture and airborne particulate can alter the tonal "flavor" of your vinyl as it effects the response of the needle on a journey through a soft vinyl valley. It will not effect a CD.

Play that vinyl 500 times, it will wear the groves and change the tone. That CD can be played non stop for 20 years and nothing will change.

I don't doubt you like it, I just doubt it's better.

THE ONLY thing that vinyl does that CDs do not do is reproduce sine wave forms. Digital mediums are chopped up into tiny square waves. But those square waves are so tiny your brain will not register them. Just like frames in a movie. Literally EVERYTHING else is more precise and more dynamic because....lasers. they do things tiny needles just can't do.

If you don't believe me, buy an oscilloscope or put a frequency spectrum analyzer on your audio signal and compare CD data with vinyl data.

Bonus point: 45s have better sound quality than 33s anyway. Slower record speeds provide less time/space for the needle to travel. That extra 12 revolutions per minute translates to more "information" etched into the vinyl that moves the needle, almost like a bit rate for digital. So I hope you are at least thinking of 45s when you talk about hi fidelity audio.

Cheers!

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