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Or0b0ur0s t1_isk1o22 wrote

I'll be the first to say that Democrats, especially the politicians thereof, don't have all the answers, aren't right about everything, etc.

But you don't see them doing this shit, or if you do it's an outlier. You don't see them resorting to the pervasive incivility, rule-breaking, law-breaking, lying & cheating at the direct campaign level. And it's entirely ubiquitous at all levels of Republican politics.

That alone ought to tell you who to vote for, at least until we can break the 2-party system via Ranked Choice voting, hopefully someday. In the meantime, you still might find yourself yelling angrily at your TV at some boneheaded policy or new law. But at least you have some reasonable hope of either changing their mind or at least voting them out. Republicans clearly have absolutely no interest in anything but plutocracy and fearmongering, and will stoop to any level of malfeasance to get there.

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Lostscribe007 t1_isk33hq wrote

Totally agree, I'm an Independent who has voted for both parties at different times but the "Trumpublicans" are forcing me to vote more Democrat than I normally do. Starting to feel an even stronger need for a third and fourth option that can actually win.

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tabascodinosaur t1_iskd64l wrote

You can't have a 3rd or 4th option without changing the voting system, which isn't going to happen via the GOP or old power Dems. Grassroots organizing within the Dem party is the only way to get this done right now.

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TMax01 t1_iskl294 wrote

I'm not trying to be fatalist or defeatist, but honestly, all you can do with that is change which parties the top 2 contenders are in, you can't prevent there being a top 2 contenders, or it being in every individuals (whether candidate or voter) self-interest to align themselves with one of those two. Even the most diverse party systems in other countries always come down the faction in power against the opposition faction.

There are only two ways of changing this, and neither of them is ranked voting, instant runoffs, open primaries, or any other alternate electoral mechanics. The first way is to change reality so that laws do not either exist or not exist, and bills do not either pass or fail, requiring legislators to vote either yea or nay. That is not possible physically, but philosophically we can still consider it as if it weren't a necessary, logical, and metaphysical certainty.

The second way is to change our understanding of reality, without needing to change the electoral process at all. The truth is that it doesn't matter how government representatives are selected, some of the people being governed are going to have wanted a different representative. It is inherent in the duties of a government official to serve everyone, including people who voted against them (or didn't vote at all). If an official got 12% of the vote (while running against a dozen others who each got less) or 88% of the vote, it shouldn't matter, and the responsibility of a citizen in a democracy is to consider the official legitimate regardless. This is difficult to do, I realize, given that we must judge the validity of a government (particularly a democratic republic) by the results as much as the system itself. Most people want everything to be simple, and it isn't surprising that many don't believe that an office holder who only got a plurality rather than the majority of the votes deserves to be in office. And so it isn't surprising that office holders (regardless of party, but more often authoritarians) consider their selection as a mandate to serve their Party's unified goals rather than their constituent's diverse interests. Logic makes the first easy and the second impossible, so why would anyone bother not doing the first or even attempting the second?

Even an official who got 88% of the vote must be fair, and adequately represent (not faithfully parrot, but decently serve) the other 12%, and anyone who abstained or was disenfranchised. We rightfully have no tolerance (though we are not everyone in this case) for using government power once secured to punish those who didn't help secure it or pledge to help maintain it. But logic makes us animals or robots: to be fully human, we must accept the need to attempt potentially impossible tasks, and that includes self-government, which is the real purpose of both republics and democracies, either separately or in combination.

We can either abandon that pretense of "the problem is the 2 party system", which is a strawman, and recognize that a plurality is just as legitimate as a majority, so we no longer demand (by our expectations, whether or not we demand it in our actions or words) that we maintain a two party system so that whoever gets more votes also gets a majority of votes; or we can insist it is a fact rather than a pretense, and say that unless an unlimited number of candidates are on the ballot and one of them gets a majority, no election occurred, and get rid of parties all together. I know which one I think is more achievable and productive; how about you?

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alaska1415 t1_isk56hx wrote

Republicans simply feel entitled to do whatever they want to whomever they want.

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AngryZen_Ingress t1_ismmtwl wrote

And blame Democrats for doing first even though they have no evidence.

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ThatGuyOutBackMUT t1_iskfdc2 wrote

I've had over a dozen signs destroyed or stolen this year. This is bullshit.

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SandGrits t1_islrtu2 wrote

We were driving today to a park and the only sign out were for republicans. I commented on it at the time on the way to my wife.

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curatedaccount t1_isoyowu wrote

>But you don't see them doing this shit,

No. YOU don't see them doing this shit. Because your echochamber would rather show you what you see here.

My echochamber showed me video after video of people trying to yank trump signs out of yards that had been booby trapped with electric fencing.

But at least I wasn't dumb enough to think I was seeing an unbiased sample... What's wrong with you?

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Or0b0ur0s t1_ispa4ub wrote

I'm surrounded by Trump signs, MAGA, et. al. If anyone was taking them out, I have a better-than-average seat to witness it. Is it impossible? No. But at some point weight of statistics comes into play. As in, you see & hear this bullshit constantly. With absolutely no examples of the opposite, not even edge cases, it's entirely rational to at least say they're rarer. You can't say that the media wouldn't love reporting it, if it were there to report.

But you go ahead and just assume it's bias. That's the mirror you're looking at.

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curatedaccount t1_ispihak wrote

> I'm surrounded by Trump signs, MAGA, et. al. If anyone was taking them out, I have a better-than-average seat to witness it. Is it impossible?

I'm sorry, was anyone in this conversation under the impression that there are bands of ideologues all over the country trawling every backwoods road for political signs they don't like, like some kind of overly complex google street view operation?

This headline is about 100 signs. Not millions. The cases I saw were one-off events and the cases everyone is talking about in this thread are one-off events. If 100 people in PA got mugged in broad daylight, would you expect to have personally witnessed one?

I've got a very small spattering of Dem signs around where I live and they're fine too.

On the other hand I went on vacation to Holden Beach NC this year and saw a big trump sign that was all smashed up and vandalized. So there's that, if all you accept is personal anecdotes and headlines you agree with, that is.

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Unusual-Bid-6583 t1_iskse1k wrote

Yes, this. I bet those were all Trump supporters I watched in the last cycle, running over with their cars, or stealing all the Trump signs. Democrats would never come down to that level... Never... let's provide unlimited free abortion to everyone, male and or female.

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Or0b0ur0s t1_isksuiz wrote

Where do you live that people were destroying Trump signs? I flat-out do not believe you, because I see no evidence anywhere. Even the propagandists a la Tucker Carlson would be shrieking about it if it actually happened anywhere to any measurable degree.

I'm also going to challenge you to tell me why banned or expensive abortion is good, for anyone, because it isn't. Not for babies, families, men, women, or society.

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whitemage82 t1_iskz1hp wrote

It’s a troll account, don’t engage. They’re everywhere in any PA related sub.

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Unusual-Bid-6583 t1_isktpow wrote

I drive professionally all through Pennsylvania and the tri state area.. I have witnessed it several times... twice I stopped to offer aid... and twice I was told, just "trying to make America great again by removing these Trump Signs." And whilst driving through residential neighborhoods, the amount of cars turfing lawns, just to run them down... or vay!

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Or0b0ur0s t1_iskubqs wrote

The vast amount of lying done by right-wing supporters makes it hard to believe you. Marking up one's own houses with BLM graffiti and the like. People supporting the barbaric ideology of the Right can't seem to be trusted to act or speak truthfully or in good faith. As evidenced by the dumpster full of Democratic signs.

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Unusual-Bid-6583 t1_iskvacv wrote

So you are calling me a liar? I have no reason to lie about such a thing. As a professional driver, I'm supposed to render aid to motorists in need... and that is what I was told by the Trump sign haters. Other than that. The ones I saw driving off the road, to damage signs, ill give them the benefit of doubt... perhaps they were drunken motorists that accidentally went 100 yards off of the road, ran down signs and manipulated their vehicles back on to the roadway.

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Or0b0ur0s t1_iskzebf wrote

Even if I didn't automatically distrust right-wingers, your account looks (and your posts sound) like a Chinese or Russian troll farm account, if not even a bot. Pound sand.

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byndrsn t1_iskutju wrote

>running over with their cars

yet they put their signs in front of metal sign posts to protect them

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