Submitted by wdcmsnbcgay t3_y9w45i in Pennsylvania
Comments
akennelley t1_it7sroc wrote
>Biology Teacher
I'd like to hear what this person teaches about evolution.
IamSauerKraut t1_it82my0 wrote
Prolly a Dover educated creationist.
pejede_0 t1_it9blu2 wrote
I get this devilish reference.
[deleted] t1_it8tory wrote
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james97go t1_it96omy wrote
Prolly teaches the hard science that there are only 2 sexes. Male and female. Prolly likes to use the classic and beautiful language of his birth and not some made up silly newage jargon.
IamSauerKraut t1_it98dhm wrote
Is it a "hard science" that there are only 2 sexes? Pediatricians and reality might disagree.
ps to person whose post is [deleted]: do not blame any specific religion for the teacher's views. not right to do so.
james97go t1_it997fr wrote
Yes it is hard science that there is only 2 sexes as defined by chromosomes at the cellular level. Don't confuse biology with psychology.
SgtBaxter t1_it9omqh wrote
Scientifically the argument can be made there's 3, xx, xy, and xxy since 1 in every 600 people are born xxy. Physically they are male, but can have features like breast tissue which a true male will not.
There's also karyotypes of mixed chromosome pairs, and let's not forget divisions of the ovum that can result in two separate fertilized ova which is very common. Those ova often re-fuse, and a person can be born with both xx and xy chromosomes if the separate ova were fertilized by an x and a y sperm. This results in things like having a vagina but testicles instead of ovaries. Or having a penis where the clitoris is.
What sex is that?
We could also go on at length about SRY during meiosis, resulting in both testicular and ovary tissues being simultaneously present.
Biology is messy. Individuals are born every single day with the above mentioned. That isn't in their head, it's in their chromosomes. An actual biology teacher should know this.
If not, then they should be shown the door.
SomePaddy t1_itab9u7 wrote
There's also XO, XYY, and XXX if we're talking sex chromosomal aneuploidy. And androgen insensitivity syndrome in which XY individuals present as female.
james97go t1_itbcjnm wrote
You make good points but the truth of the matter is that the vast, vast majority of of people that claim to be transsexuals do not have aberrant chromosomes and are not born with abnormal genitalia.
IamSauerKraut t1_itc0zlj wrote
And what of it? If a kid wants to wear a dress, let the kid wear a dress. Or jeans. Just leave the kids alone.
james97go t1_itc9feg wrote
Oh I am absolutely fine with leaving kids alone. Just do not expect everyone to believe the delusion that a boy dressed like a girl is actually a female.
IamSauerKraut t1_itcdxrd wrote
Who cares what you believe? If the kid is not yours, who are you to have a say in how they present themselves? I personally do not care for tats on kids but I don't make derogatory comments to or about that kid. Not my place. Not yours, either.
james97go t1_itd6tuc wrote
You are correct in that what I believe or what you believe and for that matter what some confused kid believes doesn't matter really. What matters is the truth. IDC if a kid thinks they are a fairy princess,or a cowboy I would play along with their imaginary reality for a bit but I would never suspend reality and tell the kid to go ahead and fly away by jumping off a roof or let them go and ride a bull. In reality they really aren't fairy princesses or cowboys, they just think they are.
IamSauerKraut t1_itdzj17 wrote
gratuitous nonsense
IamSauerKraut t1_it99cz9 wrote
Ah, so birth is just something in a woman's head instead of a baby with maybe unisex parts exiting from thru the birth canal. riiiiiiiight.
james97go t1_it9agz5 wrote
Unisex parts? Seriously is that is your argument for the 'transexual' phenomenon that permeates our societal discussions as of late? You need to get some data together and do the hard science to prove your point if it is.
IamSauerKraut t1_it9puwd wrote
I understand science is hard (try organic, for instance) but at least do a basic internet search. Allow google to be your bbf for a few minutes.
As for "the 'transexual' phenomenon that permeates our societal discussions," that is not science based. It is based on people's ignorance of things different from them, their prurient interest in another's business, and in some folks' willingness to declare war on other people's children. There would be no "phenomenon" otherwise.
Evilevilcow t1_itb61pn wrote
You certainly dropped that "bUt SCIENCE sHoWs thERe ArE jUSt Two sExEs!" argument like it burned you.
But I bet you're going to bust out with it again the second you think the people you are making it to can't come back at you with science.
StupiderIdjit t1_it9j2ck wrote
sCiEnCe dUrr
This is what you sound like.
SomePaddy t1_itabe5l wrote
This is a valuable contribution to the discussion. /s
--Cr1imsoN-- t1_it9jhwu wrote
lmao part of being a scientist is accepting change. You’re a piss poor scientist if you only follow the same age old theories without incorporating new knowledge.
M4053946 t1_it89sm6 wrote
Someone says that biological sex is a real thing, and you wonder what they think of evolution? Odd. I think the right person to ask this question is the person who says that your sex is determined by your feelings and not your biology.
akennelley t1_it8anah wrote
I wonder what they think about evolution because its ALSO not compatible with most mainstream religion, and being religion is the excuse the teacher has given to not use preferred pronouns, I think its a valid curiosity.
M4053946 t1_it8bflz wrote
> not compatible with most mainstream religion
Except for the catholics, methodists, lutherans, anglicans, presbyterians, unitarians, and others.
akennelley t1_it8gmf3 wrote
And how many those prohibit using preferred pronouns?
I have another question.
What the fuck is your problem? You're either a complete spaghetti head or hellbent on picking the dumbest fights for no reason.
WindsDyinDownJosh t1_it8h5k7 wrote
From the looks of it, the answer is "Spaghetti head"
yeags86 t1_it8mesu wrote
To be fair, both would also be a valid answer.
--Cr1imsoN-- t1_it9jzkc wrote
Certainly compatible, but good luck convincing the most conservative members of those said religions into thinking that it is.
PensiveLog t1_it8kqav wrote
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sex and gender are different things. Pronouns denote gender
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someone wanting to be referred to as “they” does not have any impact on your life, so there’s no need for you to cry about it.
thelongestfurby t1_it92jnm wrote
Transgender people are very aware that your biology doesn’t magically change when you identify as another gender, they take hormones specifically for that.
gray-matter1111 t1_it979vd wrote
biologically, there are not just 2 sexes anyway. genetics is a crapshoot. anyone who has taken higher level biology classes should know that!!! science doesn’t give a heck about your feelings, buddy.
CltAltAcctDel t1_iteiswm wrote
How many sexes are there and what are those other sexes?
gray-matter1111 t1_itejkch wrote
there are an abundance of potential chromosomal differences that can occur in humans. aside from the typical XX and XY, humans can be born with a single X chromosome, XXX, XXY, etc. in addition, humans with seemingly normal XY chromosomes may present as female until genetic testing provides other evidence.
pretty cool to research, tbh!! it’s amazing what the human body does
CltAltAcctDel t1_itejtow wrote
There are chromosomal anomalies but the people with these disorders are still male or female. What are the other sexes? You said there are more than two so name them.
gray-matter1111 t1_itek7d3 wrote
intersex individuals. undefined by standard sex definitions. those examples are intersex humans, not male or female.
CltAltAcctDel t1_itekjeg wrote
Intersex isn’t a sex. It’s a disorder, a deviation from the norm. Intersex people also represent a very small percentage of the population.
gray-matter1111 t1_itel5aw wrote
nope. there’s increasing evidence that hormonal issues including low testosterone and PCOS (which affect a substantial portion of our population) are intersex conditions.
CltAltAcctDel t1_item0ej wrote
Disorders of sex development (DSD) don’t equal intersex.
CltAltAcctDel t1_iteo3hr wrote
Also PCOS is Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. It is a disorder of the ovaries and they are in no way intersexed. While they produce more male hormones, they aren’t males or some third yet to be named sex.
CuriousMaroon t1_it8zmoz wrote
This was my thought as well. Sex and gender are binary for 99.99% of humans.
thelongestfurby t1_it92d9c wrote
“Gender is binary” and “there are exceptions” are mutually exclusive
jaythebearded t1_it9h6gz wrote
.1% is still several million humans
CertifiableNormie t1_it7sx52 wrote
I'm curious as to why it would go against his beliefs but at the same time he's probably using that as some bullshit excuse to not do it. What a waste of everyone's time and energy to be pissy about not calling someone by their preferences.
kifn2 t1_it882pg wrote
He's definitely using it as a bullshit excuse to hate people. Although it is true that his religion likely does preach hate.
saintofhate t1_it8n5kt wrote
People who use religion as an excuse to be bigoted, should be made to show where in their holy book it says that. The bible doesn't mention trans people at all.
susinpgh t1_it8xmk8 wrote
This has been surfacing lately:
https://www.advocate.com/religion/2017/6/02/30-lgbt-saints#media-gallery-media-1
Frankiethetrans t1_italppa wrote
Please go a day without saying they at all. Examples oh look someone drop their wallet I wonder who they are. look that person they are really attractive. Please go a day without using that at all.
merklegroot t1_it8jrk2 wrote
Good for him. He has my support.
Unique-Public-8594 t1_it8mcqr wrote
The way I see it, anyone who struggles with the feeling that the genitalia that they were born with doesn’t fit their personality and desires needs support. Their life is hard enough. Using their preferred pronouns is an easy way to show acceptance, understanding, and inclusivity. You can’t know how hard it is unless you are them.
sataninspirit t1_it9obeo wrote
Absolutely right. It’s dealing with delusional people 101. Listen, understand, don’t judge, avoid challenging how they feel, and respect their view of their world. It’s not that hard
merklegroot t1_it8qmlm wrote
So anyone that doesn't agree with you gets fired now?
Unique-Public-8594 t1_it8tj7n wrote
I’m not setting policy and not in charge of anyone else. So, not up to me.
victorix58 t1_ita1w6f wrote
Agree. He shouldn't have to conform to the thought police's abuse of English.
_KnightsDelight_ t1_it8dk2x wrote
What in the fuck is Ze/Zir and Xe/Xem???
lawsofrobotics t1_it8vqxe wrote
Real answer: They're called "neopronouns." They're an attempt to create a new pronoun that's unambiguously singular, but not gendered, which is currently something English lacks. Some nonbinary people prefer them to they/them, but their use is relatively rare, even within the trans community. There have been a bunch of proposals over the years; xe and ze (pronounced the same) are the most popular, trailing they/them by a large margin.
[deleted] t1_ita26ew wrote
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[deleted] t1_it9zwa0 wrote
I have a question about this. My district encourages (requires) staff to use preferred names and pronouns but not neopronouns. Is this normal?
capitocoto t1_itbfnbv wrote
Neopronouns are functionally rare.
My office has a lot of trans folks and many nonbinary. We have… two? People who use neopronouns and both also use they.
I am trans and I have a social circle that has a lot of other trans people including a lot of nonbinary people and none of them use neopronouns.
They exist. But they are rare.
[deleted] t1_itbs1r4 wrote
Yeah I've only run into one person who uses neopronouns but all of the trans and nonbinary people in my life use they/them and I know it is extremely rare.
I guess i was more curious why a school would have progressive policies but draw the line at neopronouns. They recognize trans people and their preferred pronouns and the counselors I work with even help the older students go through legal change of name process. There lack of support because it's rare would make sense but all of these other policies and meetings were for a handful of students.
capitocoto t1_itbv99z wrote
I mean, within the trans community neopronouns are sometimes contentious. Not in the “don’t use them, they are an abomination” way that you see on with the Alt-Right, but in the “we are still in a deep conversation about what they convey and how they can be used appropriately.”
As a rare function, i can imagine that some places might avoid their use as a way to avoid misuse. I am trans and I am often unsure how to decline vaer or fae. I also have concerns that when I vocalize them (vs typing) I cannot hear a distinct difference between they, xe, ze, fae, and vie. So it always feels like I am saying they even when I am trying not to.
Neopronouns, I think, are still in a stage of growing pains.
[deleted] t1_itby9dl wrote
This makes a lot more sense. I also could see the lack of defined neopronouns causing the school to currently reject them all instead of trying to determine what's accepted.
NowIOnlyWantATriumph t1_it8izcz wrote
neopronouns
not all nonbinary people feel that “they” or “them” is accurate!
[deleted] t1_itbbnal wrote
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Z0MB1ESLAYER115 t1_it9w2jt wrote
Nonsense
SeaPoem717 t1_it8p0y1 wrote
Liberal bullshit
TacoNomad t1_it92b9j wrote
New words are never developed. Ever. What was created centuries ago is all that there shall ever be, right?
Even your use of the word liberal in a political sense is unacceptable, because that was not it's original intention. Nor bullshit.
Electr_O_Purist t1_it8q015 wrote
Get mad about something you don’t know or understand before even attempting to educate yourself. Go ahead, reactionary goon. Show everyone who you are.
mid2yur t1_it8slsq wrote
It’s getting pathetic already. If you put this much energy into something productive maybe you wouldn’t have to combine random letters at the end of your signature.
Electr_O_Purist t1_it8vbdk wrote
Sorry it triggers you, snowflake. Why don’t you head back to your safe zone where no one criticizes your astounding ignorance?
_KnightsDelight_ t1_it91yk7 wrote
I don’t think anyone is really “triggered” by it as much as they find it ridiculous and attention seeking.
Electr_O_Purist t1_it96rqp wrote
Because they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about and they’re a bunch of reactionary blowhards.
mid2yur t1_it9e92f wrote
I’m not triggered. Just sick of not knowing someone’s 1000 pronouns and getting yelled at. It’s pathetic. Grow up.
GreasyQtip t1_it9ge8f wrote
No one has ever yelled at you for that
Electr_O_Purist t1_it9jt51 wrote
Interesting…so, your gripe isn’t about other people’s experience with gender as much as it is about the threat of your own humiliation?
mid2yur t1_it9jzxw wrote
You’re automatically made to seem like the asshole in the room when you don’t know what someone goes as
an_ugly_bird t1_it9lnd6 wrote
I have to be real honest, this reads as your own insecurities and what you think others think about you. Never in my life has someone been upset about my making an honest mistake about their gender. Literally throw out a quick apology and move on. Also, it's the entire purpose of presenting your name and pronouns when being introduced. That way you know right away and can, therefore, not have to worry about being an asshole. And even then, if you slip up (as happens when learning new things), apologize, correct yourself, and move on. I assure you, treating others with empathy and humanity will never be an asshole move.
--Cr1imsoN-- t1_it9kixt wrote
No, you’re just seen as human because people make mistakes. As long as you don’t act like an asshole about it, it’s really not that big of a deal.
Your_Local_Rabbi t1_it9kwgh wrote
have you tried: Asking them
Electr_O_Purist t1_it9lekf wrote
Have you had this experience yourself? I’m genuinely curious to hear this. I thought maybe you just hated people who are trans or something, but it’s starting to sound like this is an ego thing about you.
mid2yur t1_it9masq wrote
On a few occasions, yeah. I really don’t care what someone is, identifies as, really whatever. Do what makes you feel happy, truly. Maybe I’m in this mindset from the few times where I was berated and not given a chance to correct myself. But it is something I feel like I must not make a mistake on or risk being yelled at.
Electr_O_Purist t1_it9nc4m wrote
So, your earlier comment about people’s experience with gender being “pathetic” isn’t the real you, and you’re actually supportive of people’s gender identities, so long as you are not berated about getting it wrong; have I got that right?
I ask because comments like your original one contribute to the high suicide rate of teens who are trans so, I want to make sure that, in your effort to be respected, you don’t accidentally violate your newly stated “do whatever makes you happy” principle.
Is there any chance you’re conflating an experience of someone correcting you with them flying off the handle? Maybe you’ve been a little sensitive to being corrected in the past?
_KnightsDelight_ t1_it9p3bj wrote
Bruh what is this a therapy session? Are you gonna redeem of his sins for not getting a stupid fucking pronoun correct? And how the fuck does getting someone’s pronoun wrong contribute to the suicide rate? People are called assholes all day long but it’s not contributing to suicides. You got other problems in life if a simple mistake is driving you to suicide. Smfh.
N8AF t1_itbcgha wrote
Clearly, you’ve never been to therapy. This is called a debate on Reddit. Is this your first day on the internet? Using the wrong pronoun doesn't contribute to suicide but bullying folks does. Which is exactly what you folks are doing and I don’t believe you’re anywhere dumb enough not to know this. This has little to do with name-calling and everything to do with intent. Your defenses are all the classic techniques of bullies. Which is what you are. If not, drop it. The only thing guaranteed in life is change. So, what? You have to change some pronouns when addressing some folks. This is not a big deal. This is common courtesy. This is good manners. This is expected when interacting in a civil society. It’s as simple as your cousin Charlie deciding to go by Charles but you insist on calling them Charlie even after they request otherwise. It doesn't matter if you’ve known them your whole life as Charlie. Doesn't matter people are called Charlie every day without issue. Doesn't matter how silly you think it is. It’s not woke to understand that disrespecting people is not ok or acceptable no matter what form that takes. I'm honestly far from woke and even I see the world’s moving on here. Best you get moving with it because the kids coming up have zero tolerance for your kind of bs and are nowhere as forgiving as us old people. Your transparent little “religious freedom” schemes won't last and are doing irreparable damage to any honest religious freedom cases in the future.
bienvenidos-a-chilis t1_itbnx26 wrote
conservatives love making up enemies to get mad at
--Cr1imsoN-- t1_it9kbov wrote
This just in: changing language is now apparently “liberal bullshit”. Someone should let the lexicographers know.
Edit: I guess no one got the joke.
capitocoto t1_it87edo wrote
I wish someone could explain to me how “please use the correct word to refer to me” violates a religious belief.
I was raised Christian. I was Christian for years. Nowhere in the Bible does it say, “These pronouns are the only ones allowed and they are assigned this way.” (Given that none of the books were originally written in English that’s good. I don’t want to learn Greek or Aramaic.) and as for names, Jesus is the one who names Peter, when they are both adults. The Godspeed support adult name changes.
AeAeR t1_it89env wrote
I do not understand how these people reconcile their actions with Jesus’. Do they think Jesus wouldn’t have made the person feel welcome? The hypocrisy kills me.
akennelley t1_it8hpzu wrote
Don't you know Jesus made sure all the people he fed and healed weren't gay or trans first.
"Lord Jesus, please touch me and heal my infirmity!"
The Lord looked upon his servant and saith "No homo?"
[deleted] t1_ita2cbs wrote
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SamuelDoctor t1_it9uxo4 wrote
"Jesus taught that we should treat others as we would like to be treated. That doesn't mean I have to treat others as THEY would like to be treated. I would want to be treated as if I was ridiculous if I were acting the way that person is! I'm following the guidance of Christ to the letter! Read the bible!"
Just guessing.
SamuelDoctor t1_it9uqsj wrote
I think you can use your imagination as to how the biblical concept of gender and sex might be applied in this situation.
capitocoto t1_it9y6n8 wrote
Which Biblical concept of gender?
If you are referring to complementarianism, that’s from 1987. It’s younger than me and younger than you, probably. I wouldn’t call that Biblical when it’s only 35 years old.
In the era when the New Testament was written, there was only one gender. Women were an aberration of men. If that’s what you want, I don’t think the current white evangelical American genders are going to work for you.
SamuelDoctor t1_ita6z1n wrote
I'm referring to Abrahamic gender roles.
I'm an agnostic atheist and a secular humanist.
d0s4gw t1_ita2o4y wrote
If you’re actually interested in a discussion, then I’ll play along.
I’m just guessing but guessing the Christian argument could be something along the lines of man and woman are creations of God and to try to change one’s sex is to deny that God’s creation is “good”. I think it has less to do with the pronouns per se and more to do with the concept that sex is mutable.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%202%3A4-25&version=ESV
“then the Lord God formed the man of (D)dust from the ground and (E)breathed into his (F)nostrils the breath of life, and (G)the man became a living creature”
“20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam[g] there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a (S)deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made[h] into a woman and brought her to the man.”
It’s kind of weak, but I could see it being connected to that.
I think the 1st amendment argument is much stronger and more directly related to the pronouns themselves. No one can force someone else to say something. Period. There’s really not even a need to explain why. There’s no compulsory speech. Maybe it’s rude or insensitive but there’s no laws against those. I could see that potentially being against a code of conduct at a private business and could justify firing someone, but public education is government, so again it would be the government compelling speech. Plus it’s not a slur or hate speech exactly so I think it’s probably protected. Unless there’s precedent for hate speech being dependent on context that I’m not aware of.
capitocoto t1_itbfdw7 wrote
Yeah and if I call a client a whore, I am getting fired from Wendy’s.
The first amendment doesn’t protect your right to say anything you want and not get fired from your job.
You have failed third grade civics.
d0s4gw t1_itccny0 wrote
That’s not even remotely what I said. Calling someone he or she is not the same as calling someone a whore.
capitocoto t1_itd090o wrote
And a school having a policy about pronouns has nothing to do with the First Amendment.
It’s an institution that is allowed to have rules and guidelines about speech used by its employees and representatives. In this case, they must respect individual’s pronouns.
Your comment is akin to the people who shout angrily about their constitutional rights when they get put in Facebook jail or banned from Twitter.
d0s4gw t1_itd87s3 wrote
It’s really not and you could probably see that if you weren’t ideologically possessed and were more interested in a real discussion than the typical bad faith redditor snark. Thanks anyway, I regret trying to engage.
capitocoto t1_itd8dyj wrote
Quite literally the First Amendment applies to the government not arresting you for your speech. It does not apply to your employer firing you for behavior that violates the rule book.
d0s4gw t1_itdcwld wrote
The difference in this situation is that the rule isn’t about what you can’t say. It’s about what you must say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compelled_speech
The closest example in my opinion is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette
the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment protects students from being forced to salute the American flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance in public school.
the state did not have the power to compel speech
capitocoto t1_itdf1np wrote
And the state isn’t compelling speech.
If a call center operator decides that he is going to call you Mrs Doubtfire for the entire call, he will be fired. Starbucks employees have been fired for the names they put on a cup.
Employees can be and have been fired for being disrespectful to clients. It can be one of the hardest parts of customer service jobs and any client facing jobs.
It is disrespectful and injurious to misgender a person.
The school has made the decision that if an employee (teacher) misgenders a client (student), that is an offense that can lead to firing.
I am part of compliance in a call center as a hat I wear professionally. If I monitored an employee who was consistently misgendering one of our clients, I would report that. It wouldn’t be my business what happens to them afterward, but it could definitely be a factor that leads to them being fired.
This is not a constitutional issue.
d0s4gw t1_itdfqcj wrote
If the threat of being fired isn’t compulsion then what is it?
capitocoto t1_itdfya6 wrote
So you think employees should be able to say whatever they want, whenever they want, on company time and while representing the company, and it should have no effect on their employment status?
d0s4gw t1_itdh7or wrote
No, there are things people can say that can warrant being fired. As an example - https://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/houston-teacher-fired-after-racist-comments-were-recorded-during-class
The discussion we’re having is, can there be things that a person doesn’t say that warrants being fired? The court case I linked based in part on the first amendment suggests the precedent says no. It’s pretty clear that this is a constitutional issue, and the school in question also sees it that way because they withdrew the policy.
capitocoto t1_itdl53f wrote
Per the article, the teacher was actively using the wrong pronouns for the student. That goes beyond being compelled to say something - the teacher was actively misgendering the student.
You clearly have zero understand of speech, employment, or grammar.
d0s4gw t1_itdoklc wrote
Try reading more material on the topic. No student was misgendered. And try to stop being such a judgmental prick
capitocoto t1_itdpua4 wrote
Do you not know what misgender means? If you don’t, the dictionary can help.
This teacher refused to gender his student properly which is the very definition of misgendering the student.
d0s4gw t1_itdtv5n wrote
No student was misgendered. The teacher refused to agree to a policy on preferred pronouns. There were no students involved. https://www.timesonline.com/story/news/local/2022/10/06/south-side-school-district-reinstates-teacher-suspended-refusing-to-use-preferred-pronouns-beaver/69544475007/
capitocoto t1_itdw3rj wrote
Where are you getting that information?
Because there is no where in the article that you linked where it says no student was misgendered. It says the superintendent declined to give comment about the case.
Declining to give comment =/= no student got misgendered.
This article states he was suspended because he refused to comply with his employer’s policy
Btw I am greatly amused that you have changed both tactics and goal posts. Your first argument was that this was a First Amendment issue and no one can compel this man’s speech. Now you have abandoned it and your new argument is that because no student was harmed, it shouldn’t be a problem.
A+
d0s4gw t1_itdxkc5 wrote
It’s still a first amendment issue. The teacher was reinstated. You’re a dick.
victorix58 t1_ita1z0r wrote
It's not the correct word if it violates English.
capitocoto t1_itbfucc wrote
Remarkably, English is a language that likes to be violated so that it can adapt to new situations.
But if you are referring to the singular they, both Chaucer and Shakespeare used the singular they and it is an established part of the language.
curatedaccount t1_it90nzy wrote
> I wish someone could explain to me how “please use the correct word to refer to me” violates a religious belief.
The way you phrased the question makes it clear you're not ready to hear an answer. So nobody with any awareness is going to attempt it.
capitocoto t1_it939qi wrote
Because there is NOTHING in the Bible or traditional Christian theology that says addressing someone by a name, nickname, or pronoun is a religious violation or sin.
curatedaccount t1_it94r4l wrote
No it's definitely because you're close-mindedness is clearly visible in every sentence you write. Nobody is gonna engage you on this with any kind of conviction.
capitocoto t1_it9acz6 wrote
I mean, you have no conviction nor an understanding of the English language so certainly you would be functionally incapable of providing an explanation even if you were so inclined.
curatedaccount t1_it9e91m wrote
You suck at reverse psychology FYI.
Your_Local_Rabbi t1_it9l91h wrote
"i don't have a good answer, so i'm going to pretend the answer is obvious and you're ridiculous for asking. i am very smart"
Juan_Inch_Mon t1_it8oi02 wrote
Right. My coworkers refuse to refer to me as "Your Majesty". If they contimnue to not refer to me in the way I ask because of how I see myself, then I am going to have to elevate the issue to HR.
capitocoto t1_it8vjti wrote
Even if we wanted to pretend that referring to someone by the right pronouns was remotely similar to demanding to be treated as royalty, where in the Bible or Christian theology does it say that is a violation of the faith?
It is my understanding that the crown heads of Europe are almost all, if not all, entirely Christian. King Charles of the United Kingdom, His Majesty, is even the head of the Anglican Church.
curatedaccount t1_it90w0w wrote
> demanding to be treated as royalty,
He didn't say that. You're straw-manning.
He only asked to be referred to as 'Your Majesty' not for anyone to have to serve him peeled grapes on a platter or whatever.
It's a simple change of the way you refer to him, nothing more.
But you TOOK it as a request for something more. Maybe you should be wondering if the people who have a knee-jerk reaction to neopronouns are taking it as a request for something more than just a change in how they're addressed.
capitocoto t1_it934h5 wrote
Your Majesty is a form of address generally reserved for royalty when not being used sarcastically. It is not a pronoun.
Pronouns are nouns we substitute for other nouns: usually one like he, she, it, they, and their declensions. The student in question uses they pronouns. Both Chaucer and Shakespeare used a singular they so if you try the “that’s always plural” you will only further demonstrate the failure of English education in this state.
Your Majesty is a form of formal address, usually reserved for a monarch above the rank of prince.
Congrats! You are transphobic and don’t understand English grammar!
curatedaccount t1_it944rs wrote
> Your Majesty is a form of address generally reserved for royalty when not being used sarcastically.
"Ma'am" is a form of address generally reserved for females.
I thought we were ignoring how words are generally used when asked too if it doesn't hurt anyone? Are we not doing that?
>when not being used sarcastically
Ah, so you are applying a 'genuineness' filter to the requests. And if you decide, based on whatever, that they're not genuine, you can just ignore them?
Can I do that? Can a teacher do that? Or only you can do that?
Who is hurt if you call someone who isn't royalty 'your majesty'?
capitocoto t1_it9d1pp wrote
Wow. Literally all of your comments are racist or anti-queer. Like. All of them.
You don’t have a normal thought in your head. It’s just hatred of non-whites and queers. That’s it.
I have been aware that people like you exist for a long time. My mother is one of you. But damn, it’s always a little terrifying when you encounter a human who has chosen to become the personification of hatred.
curatedaccount t1_it9ee1r wrote
Lol. You could have just said "uncle" it'd have been quicker.
How about engaging in the conversation you're in rather than digging through my profile for old ones?
>My mother is one of you
You will be too... When you're older.
capitocoto t1_it9xp9g wrote
I am a middle aged man.
The “you’ll be conservative and bat shit when you’re older” wasn’t convincing when I was 15.
QuirrelsTurban t1_it8mjv4 wrote
The continued lesson I learn is that right wing people are always going to find something to hate about LGBTQ people and they'll always have a reason why it's not wrong for them to openly hate us. This is why I don't bother making friends with or being around anyone who is conservative.
yeags86 t1_it8o8vf wrote
What gets me is the whole “well, they are one of the good ones” spiel. Apply that to sexuality, race, religion, etc.
What they are really saying is “I know this person and like them, but all the others like them are scum”.
I’ve seen it with my wife who is half black. I have seen it with a lesbian couple she is friends with. “Well, they’re fine but that’s not what I meant”. Yes the fuck it is, assholes.
N00dlemonk3y t1_it9o08l wrote
I love my home state but god damn do I wish it would get with the times. It's 2022. There is no reason to fear anything. Unless a militaristic alien race comes barrelling down from the skies, then you can fear.
bienvenidos-a-chilis t1_itbo9fm wrote
this is why isn’t so frustrating to see people in the community trying to appeal to straight people, esp conservatives. they think if they throw more “out of the box” members of the community, like neopronoun users, under the bud, straight people will suddenly accept them. but they don’t realize that if it’s not one thing, it’ll be another, they’re just constantly making shit up to back up their beliefs and it never ends
VinoBoxPapi t1_it8p6zv wrote
Way to be close minded.
QuirrelsTurban t1_it8qp9z wrote
I don't care.
VinoBoxPapi t1_it8rce1 wrote
People also don't care about your opinion though since it's just as valid to deny LGBT than to accept them. Why should people be forced to accept your ideology when you in a public space meant for education though ? The teacher doesn't owe sh*t to anyone and especially not to students. Your not in school for teachers to cater to you.
QuirrelsTurban t1_it8rnpa wrote
Then why should we respect anyone about anything? Why should I respect someone's religious beliefs if they're not going to respect me as a human being? If you can't respect another human being then you should probably not be in a job where you have to interact with them all day, every day.
VinoBoxPapi t1_it8swxf wrote
Don't you see that different places have different purposes ? School is meant for learning and only that. Don't attend the freaking class or change school if you think the values of the school and teachers don't align with yours. To demand an entire space to shift their values to cater to the needs individuals is absurd. People should keep their religious beliefs or identities at home, not at school. No one forced you to go. Just don't go if you don't like it. That teacher was hired because of his expertise in a specific field, not because of how inclusive he is toward people. If you don't want to learn about the field then don't go lmao.
QuirrelsTurban t1_it8u9ak wrote
Of course schools are meant for learning, but people don't stop being who they are when they enter the building. Obviously the teacher doesn't check his religious beliefs at the door of the building, so why should a trans student be disrespected because of who they are?
By your standards the teacher shouldn't be teaching there if he's allowing his religious beliefs to dictate his actions in the classroom.
jaythebearded t1_it9idlj wrote
> People should keep their religious beliefs at home
This should apply to the teacher as well of course.
theviolinist7 t1_itboowv wrote
If school is about teaching and learning, how do you expect a teacher to teach people properly if they can't treat students with basic respect?
SpectacledReprobate t1_it8v0pp wrote
> it’s just as valid to deny LGBT than to accept them.
> The teacher doesn’t owe sh*t to anyone and especially not to students.
> Your not
Takes hotter than a spoon at Demi Lovato’s house, and you’re talking about THEM not getting taken seriously.
Lol good luck buddy
bienvenidos-a-chilis t1_itboexb wrote
have you ever heard of the tolerance paradox?
WikiSummarizerBot t1_itbogc3 wrote
>The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Juan_Inch_Mon t1_it8o5gz wrote
That is extermly closed minded of you.
QuirrelsTurban t1_it8qfil wrote
So close minded of me to not be friends with people who want to see me and my friends as second class citizens or worse.
discogeek t1_it7rve6 wrote
I don't understand how someone willingly becomes a teacher if they don't do anything within their ability to encourage their students.. If they want to be called an avocado, call them an avocado. Picking the correct pronoun is such a low hurdle for making them feel accepted, and last I checked it's no longer 1951.
This teacher sounds more like he'd rather indoctrinate students than nurture them. If you're in the profession only for yourself, you picked the wrong career.
VinoBoxPapi t1_it8p9an wrote
Do you call a student an attack helicopter because it identifies as one ? Smh
GreasyQtip t1_it8qd9y wrote
r/onejoke
discogeek t1_it8uzir wrote
You can make up as much shit as you want - your side excels in it; but show me a student that legit identifies as an attack helicopter and we'll have an honest discussion about it.
gslavik t1_it8q0cq wrote
Is this an attempt at reductio ad absurdum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
M4053946 t1_it8ctsa wrote
Are you actually asking? Because multiple mainstream sources, including the NY Times and reuters have recently reported on the fact that the medical treatments being touted have "little scientific evidence of their long-term safety and efficacy". Which means, quite simply, that the medical treatments are unethical. This also means that taking actions that dramatically increase the chances that a kid pursues these medical treatments are also unethical. And since we know that the vast majority of kids who say they are trans will stop making that claim if allowed to go through puberty normally, then the ethical way of handling this situation is to educate kids on puberty and allow them to go through it normally, instead of helping them to transition.
It really is amazing. Kids are depressed, anxious, lonely, and confused about puberty, and they get the idea in their head that changing their gender (whatever that means) is a solution. And instead of offering them education and counseling, we allow the pharmaceuticals and medical industry to make them promises based, not on research, but on the content in sales brochures, and we send these kids down a road that involves a lifetime connection to taking pills and surgeries with high complication rates. And this is regarded as the option that good, caring people should do. Someone please make this make sense.
nttnypride t1_it8k6vv wrote
The Reuters article you linked to was overall a balanced report, and did not in any way support the half-truths and complete lies you spewed forth in the rest of your comment.
M4053946 t1_it8uuab wrote
I guess you missed this bit:
"Puberty blockers and sex hormones do not have U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval for children’s gender care. No clinical trials have established their safety for such off-label use. The drugs’ long-term effects on fertility and sexual function remain unclear. "
nttnypride t1_it8vrid wrote
I could cherry pick a lot more of that article in support of gender-affirming care, but I encourage everyone to read it for themselves. (Also this is my last reply to you as you are not an honest broker.)
M4053946 t1_it8vwca wrote
Still no sources.
M4053946 t1_it8x5qa wrote
And, in case you're looking for a source, here's the updated guidance from the NHS.
From that doc:
"The interim Cass Report has advised that although there are differing views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition, it is important to acknowledge that it should not be viewed as a neutral act. Dr Cass has recommended that social transition be viewed as an ‘active intervention’ because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. In line with this advice, the interim service specification sets out more clearly that the clinical approach in regard to pre-pubertal children will reflect evidence that in most cases gender incongruence does not persist into adolescence; and that for 12 adolescents the provision of approaches for social transition should only be considered where the approach is necessary for the alleviation of, or prevention of, clinically significant distress or significant impairment in social functioning and the young person is able to fully comprehend the implications of affirming a social transition."
discogeek t1_it8fb9e wrote
When were we talking about any medical treatment whatsoever here? You're the one obsessed over medical treatments, it's not an issue on this story. Read the article before commenting next time. Maybe you and the teacher should both comprehend what other people - including children - want before shooting off your mouth saying something stupid.
akennelley t1_it8hhha wrote
Hes an idiot, just ignore him.
M4053946 t1_it8upwx wrote
It's pretty simple.
Helping kids socially transition results in more kids transitioning medically. Sorry if that was confusing for you.
[deleted] t1_it9yk52 wrote
Recognizing non binary pronouns encourage medical transitions?
M4053946 t1_ita42q9 wrote
From recent, updated guidance from the NHS:
"The interim Cass Report has advised that although there are differing views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition, it is important to acknowledge that it should not be viewed as a neutral act. Dr Cass has recommended that social transition be viewed as an ‘active intervention’ because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. In line with this advice, the interim service specification sets out more clearly that the clinical approach in regard to pre-pubertal children will reflect evidence that in most cases gender incongruence does not persist into adolescence; and that for adolescents the provision of approaches for social transition should only be considered where the approach is necessary for the alleviation of, or prevention of, clinically significant distress or significant impairment in social functioning and the young person is able to fully comprehend the implications of affirming a social transition."
Did you read that? The NHS considers social transition as not a neutral act, and should only be done to resolve clinically significant distress. So yes, recognizing non-binary pronouns for kids who self diagnosed themselves after watching hundreds of hours of toktok is problematic.
[deleted] t1_ita5w6z wrote
I was just confused because this is referring to pre-pubescent children and the incident is discussing high school age children.
Also last time I checked this is America not the leader less UK
bdschuler t1_it8dx1z wrote
> Someone please make this make sense.
Ok, I am game. Kid wanted to just be called by a certain pronoun.. it is that simple. No need to complicate it..
The rest of your rant about naked kids and doctors.. I dunno.. something you watched on TV blew up a very rare thing or something to rile you up I am guessing?
PensiveLog t1_it8lcz8 wrote
Wow. Absolutely nothing in that diatribe was true. That’s actually kind of impressive, although I feel like your time would be better spent actually reading the articles you cite instead of binge watching Matt Walsh.
M4053946 t1_it8ue85 wrote
I noticed that while I cited sources, you didn't.
Zestyclose_Minute_69 t1_it8xpdo wrote
This person should be repeatedly misgendered as misses C. Or Mrs C if they are married. The student’s parents should do it as well and when asked why they keep calling them the wrong gender answer with “oh I thought you identified as a little bitch.” The teacher is a bully. And bullies hate to be bullied.
pittbiomed t1_it9r9iy wrote
That’s not misgendering , aren’t both ms and mrs referring to female? One being married and one single?
Zestyclose_Minute_69 t1_itb1z42 wrote
Cusato is a male teacher.
pittbiomed t1_itbnfcf wrote
Doah! My bad !
Msfancy1973 t1_itbfn4n wrote
How about the teacher just show a little respect for the student as a human being with feelings? I can’t imagine how hard it is for them to be subjected to such hate. Their feelings come from a very real place. It’s not like they just made a split decision. It’s comes from a very real place inside them-why would they subject themselves to such ridicule if it wasn’t? From one human to another I respect the person they are.
Dr_Isaly_von_Yinzer t1_it9q5lq wrote
This teacher is obviously being disingenuous. However, I’ve never understood why you have to use pronouns at all in these situations?
If you are so offended by pronouns then don’t use them. However, you will have to go by their name and if they tell you to refer to them as Adam but you’ve only ever known them as Eve, call them Adam.
If they continue to refer to you as Eve you simply say that’s not my name and refuse to respond to a name that is not yours.
If he punishes you for it, you ask him to cite other examples where he called someone by their wrong name and they were punished for his mistake.
I will guarantee you she can find examples from that school where kids have changed last names due to adoption or other paternity issues and some have probably changed first names as well.
Put the onus on him and his behavior! This isn’t about a trans student, this is about an asshole who is getting his rocks off on bullying a trans teenage kid.
Of course he won’t see it that way and he will never agree to call a trans kid by their preferred name just like he will call them by their preferred pronoun. However, you’re not trying to win him over, you’re trying to win over reasonable people. This approach at least it takes away that bullshit argument and puts the onus back on his bigotry, not the school’s policy.
[deleted] t1_ita0v59 wrote
The name thing doesn't really work because 99% of the time you have to use the students legal name on documents and I have yet to see any school policy that doesn't recognize the students legal name. Yeah most good teachers will go with what the student prefers but this tactic isn't really going to work with the way the system is set up.
thisoldbroad t1_it9eblo wrote
The LGBTQ+ Community must unite with all women, all the elderly, all races and all religions, to fight the monster that the Republican Party has become, Voting Blue💙, to take our power back from those whose platform it is to oppress and illegitimize us. Together, we can send the monster back down into it's abyss, and replace the stone that was moved to unleash it.
[deleted] t1_itali1p wrote
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[deleted] t1_itbu73v wrote
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[deleted] t1_itbuq3o wrote
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Z0MB1ESLAYER115 t1_it9wfw0 wrote
"Transphobia" no one is scared of a man or woman who does not understand biology
B_Rad- t1_ita1adu wrote
Not feeding the hysteria and fantasy of phony pronouns should be the norm.
[deleted] t1_it8ozk1 wrote
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middlingachiever t1_it9l2pq wrote
It’s really not. That’s the middle school level understanding of genetics, but there’s much more too biological sex and gender than XX and XY.
_KnightsDelight_ t1_it9pc79 wrote
Lmfao. Wtf?
middlingachiever t1_it9ril5 wrote
Here’s one possibility to get you started. It’s fascinating reading, and not new information. https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/diseases-conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome
[deleted] t1_it8xr9g wrote
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Unique-Public-8594 t1_it7plzi wrote
TLDR:
Biology Teacher Daren Cusata, Aliquippa, PA refused to use they/them pronouns stating it goes against his religious beliefs and using First Amendment.
(Aliquippa is about a half hour northwest of Pittsburgh.)