Submitted by turbodsm t3_zxsw5c in Pennsylvania
Dredly t1_j22pco3 wrote
Reply to comment by fryerandice in Who would like this law changed? Regarding trails on preserved farmland by turbodsm
so then why would it be opened to public use? seems like thousands of people walking all over it would destroy it?
fryerandice t1_j22qou3 wrote
It wouldn't, and my guess is for any already preserved farmland it can't ever happen.
An easement is a property use contract, party A pays party B for certain rights to land. In this case the state is buying the right to enforce that the land is used for agricultural purposes, and how those agricultural activities take place i.e. not burning up the soil in 5 seasons and then letting the land to rot. I am going to guess that the easement does not grant the creation of trails on this farmland, and doesn't give the county board imposing land use restrictions the right to cut off hunks of land, beyond what they already get for utilities and sidewalks.
It's like you can grant an easement to a neighbor to cut a driveway through your property, but they also can't start building a bbq pit and picnic pavilion on it, because the contract states they can build a driveway and that's it.
That's not to say that stipulations for public use couldn't be added in the future for all future easements, but my guess is if there were stipulations against oil/gas extraction, and/or stipulations granting public use of the land, farmers would sell their land to Ryan Homes instead of continuing to work the soil. Because who wants to run an operational farm with yahoos running about on trails, picking soy beans from your fields so they can eat edamame at home and shit.
turbodsm OP t1_j23pe7s wrote
Y'all really don't know what pedestrian paths look like do you? You can't think of any way a trail could exist to the edge of a farm, along existing roads?
newworldman1070 t1_j23rs8k wrote
It’s not the trail the concerns me. It’s the people on the trail.
There is a rather popular rail trail in the county next to where I live and it has issues with people off the trail all the time. Human waste on private property, dogs not in leashes chasing landowners dogs and their other animals.
turbodsm OP t1_j23s6fa wrote
What's the name of the trail? I'd love to take your word for it but I'd like to look into myself.
newworldman1070 t1_j23s8nn wrote
Pine creek rail trail.
turbodsm OP t1_j23v3wn wrote
Those are good concerns. Maybe it needs more restroom facilities at the trailheads. It looks like there are bathrooms every 5 miles but People are allowed to shit in the woods though provided that move far away from water sources and the trail.
I've never been to this trail but it seems to be world renowned. And the issues you raised aren't unique to trails, they can happen in neighborhoods too.
My specific point is related to preserved farmlands in suburbia not allowing sidewalks or paths through the edges of their property because their hands are tied by the law, not that they wouldn't support the cause.
newworldman1070 t1_j23w49g wrote
Or…..people could respect private property.
turbodsm OP t1_j23z4d6 wrote
Yeah people are shitty. That's not a reason to stop building trails though.
newworldman1070 t1_j23zf06 wrote
Right. It’s a great reason to not take private land and turn it into trails.
Build all you want on public land.
turbodsm OP t1_j240v48 wrote
You're talking about eminent domain when nobody else is taking about eminent domain.
newworldman1070 t1_j243yj6 wrote
A township or county isn’t going to fund the construction of a trail without first owning the land.
If the farmers were ok with people tromping all over their land, they probably would already allow public access.
I’m going to assume that you are not a land owner? I am. It comes with a very unique and specific set of headaches.
turbodsm OP t1_j2458yd wrote
Go read the feasibility studies for each proposed trail. They discuss this. You're not stating some little know fact. Oh wow, a county won't construct a trail on land they don't own the rights to construct on? No way. Who would have guessed. Roads and highways have been built through farms for decades. Can I get a trail along the outer edge? NO WAY!
https://www.buckscounty.gov/400/Trails-Program
>Much of the land within the study area is publicly held which minimizes the need for easements. However, in some cases, easements or land acquisition will be required to secure the right-of-way for the trail. For instance, there is the potential for routes to run through school district, homeowner association, or privately held lands. Easements or acquisitions will need to be obtained from these landowners to develop the trail network.
newworldman1070 t1_j2464ee wrote
Easements or acquisitions.
So if 5 out of 8 properties get on board, but the last three hold out, guess how that land becomes acquired.
Eminent Domain.
turbodsm OP t1_j246lcx wrote
>Eminent Domain: Although not desirable, and therefore not used very often, eminent domain can be used to acquire land. Eminent domain is the power of government to acquire property for public use so long as the government pays just compensation. The government can exercise the power of eminent domain to acquire property even if the property owner does not wish to sell the property. Government taking of such property is called a condemnation, or a taking. It is seldom used in part due to the need to show that the taking of the land does constitute public use.
Read the studies :)
newworldman1070 t1_j248bqh wrote
Here are my final thoughts on the matter.
About 40 years ago, my wife’s family farm was taken by Eminent Domain. At that time, we had read all the studies, spoken with people on both sides and were assured that eminent domain was not on the table. Needless to say, we don’t own that farm anymore, and were paid only a fraction of todays value.
Furthermore, if walking outside is something that you enjoy, consider living in an area with large amounts of public land and hiking trails. Don’t demand that others make their land available to you.
turbodsm OP t1_j249jnw wrote
Why would you get anything close to "today's value" if the land was taken 40 years ago.
Was a road built? Why was it taken?
How do you think highways were built? Land was taken. Trails are much more responsible use of land than taking land and building a highway through it. And like any internet comment, you're exaggerating the situation. You're basing your opinion on some one specific example and applying it to everywhere. That's not how the world works.
I live in a suburban area with 2 million people within a 1 hour drive. Righting the wrongs of past development means making routes for non car users and there's a preservation law stopping progress. That's the topic.
newworldman1070 t1_j249wn5 wrote
I suggest you just go out and buy your own land, stop trying to make everyone else let you use your own for free.
turbodsm OP t1_j24bnb6 wrote
Nah I'm good. I'll keep fighting for public right of ways containing pedestrian paths through my county and that does include using easements along farms and private property.
turbodsm OP t1_j23p5bd wrote
Have you ever been on a pedestrian path? Or a rail trail? What you're picturing obviously isn't correct.
Dredly t1_j240bbo wrote
Unless its bordered by razor wire, people are going to walk all over the place
turbodsm OP t1_j240s5z wrote
I don't think you've ever been on a trail
Dredly t1_j240w0t wrote
I don't think you've ever been in public?
turbodsm OP t1_j242isv wrote
Where are you referring to? You must have firsthand experience.
I've been on rail trails, forest trails, canal towpaths and I've never witnessed anything like this.
Dredly t1_j2482dh wrote
You've never witnessed people and their pets wandering off trails??? I need to go hiking whete you do!!!
turbodsm OP t1_j2488n1 wrote
Where does this happen? In a park? Dont step on the grass people.
Dredly t1_j249p3g wrote
Where do people not stay on the trails? Literally everywhere?
It's so prevalent that it's one of the biggest rules on the website! You even responded to another person making excuses for people wandering of trail because there were not enough bathrooms
turbodsm OP t1_j24cd5y wrote
You still can't name anything specific.
whoa, someone shit off the trail on a rail trail which is 62 miles long? They even offer guidelines on how to shit on the trail responsibly. Yes, totally applicable to a pedestrian trail through my neighborhood in suburbia.
newworldman1070 t1_j24d5o7 wrote
You’re referencing a trail that is located in a very rural area, with the majority of it being no man-developed state forest land. Hence the leave no trace guidelines for using the bathroom in the woods.
Point being is that even this trail has issues, and only a very small fraction of it runs through private property.
Just imagine some dude taking a dump in the backyard of your suburban McMansion.
turbodsm OP t1_j24e6j9 wrote
> Just imagine some dude taking a dump in the backyard of your suburban McMansion.
Never ever in the history of the world has a blacktop trail existed so closely in harmony with McMansions. It's never been done.
oh wait >Lower Makefield Township is home to an extensive network of existing trails that owe their existence to township ordinance regulations established in 1977 that require the installation of bikeways as part of new development within the township.
How much do homes in Lower Makefield Township, PA cost?
Median Sold Price
$585,500
newworldman1070 t1_j24jwqz wrote
Seems like a lot of money to pay for 1/4 acre in a subdivision where someone can tell you what color you need to paint your door and how many cars you can have in your driveway.
turbodsm OP t1_j24lt34 wrote
Seems like a lot of assumptions from someone who is probably also scared of cities.
Stay in the woods old man. It's a scary world.
newworldman1070 t1_j24n21b wrote
Not afraid I’d the cities at all. I do know that I don’t like them apart from a visit every once in a while.
I will stay in woods, on my own land. Instead of demanding that everyone else allows me to recreate on theirs.
Dredly t1_j25nubx wrote
wait... so you want to put in a blacktop walking trail on private property?
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and, I hate to point out the obvious - but those are required as part of NEW DEVELOPMENT, meaning they are zoned in... this is the equivalent of "must install sidewalks"... how in the hell is this relevant to people using rural trails, walking all over the place and shitting wherever they want
turbodsm OP t1_j25uf3t wrote
Do you not understand this or do you spin everything as negatively as possible?
I'd like the county and municipals to be able to work with owners of preserved farm land to install asphalt trails on the edges of the property lines parallel with existing roads. I said work with. Currently there is 0% chance of this happening because of state law. That's outdated and needs to change. We need trails. E-bikes are doubling every year in usage. People want to get out their house and take walks. We need fewer car trips. If your shitty county isn't doing these things, then butt out of the conversation.
When asked which trails have the problem with users "walking all over the place" you still haven't named a single one. If users of a trail are doing such a thing, it's a problem with trail design.
Starting to realize you're just a troll.
Dredly t1_j261z7m wrote
You want farmers to give rights to the public to walk all over their property on permanent trails which they would surrender their property to enable.
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and I've walked on a ton of trails in NE PA, on game lands, state forests, in the Lehigh Valley, Worlds End, stretches of the Appalachian Trail and a bunch of others... and no matter what, there is very clear signs that people have abused the privilege of being there, they have littered, they have left graffiti everywhere possible, and they have walked off the trails wherever they felt like it.
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I would LOVE to know what trails or paths you are walking on where people magically show respect for the rules... cause I have YET to see anything like that anywhere. Hell I haven't even seen a spot where people stay on the sidewalk and don't let their dogs shit in everyones yards
turbodsm OP t1_j26ehim wrote
Yes, you act like no farm has ever allowed an easement on their property.
And you saw trash? Oh no. Did you look on the roads as you drove there? Or were the roads magically clean somehow? I recently hiked at ricketts glen and it was very clean. Tyler state park, very clean. Newtown rail trail all the way to Roosevelt Blvd. Very clean.
You must be the old guy yelling at people to get off your lawn.
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