Pawtucket hits brakes on public borrowing for soccer stadium amid financial headwinds

wpri.com

Submitted by Rogue-Island-Pirate t3_11yxu1w in RhodeIsland

From the article:

"by: Eli Sherman

Posted: Mar 22, 2023 / 04:53 PM EDT

Updated: Mar 22, 2023 / 05:42 PM EDT

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (WPRI) – The massive Pawtucket soccer stadium development known as Tidewater Landing has new money problems.

Target 12 has confirmed city officials are hitting the pause button on issuing $27 million in public bonds to help fund the 10,000-seat stadium, saying uncertain financial conditions have so far prevented them from pulling the trigger. There is currently no timeline for when the deal will close, city officials said.

“The city’s top priority has always been protecting taxpayers,” Pawtucket spokesperson Grace Voll said in a statement, confirming the initial goal was to issue the bonds by February."

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Proof-Variation7005 t1_jda3lb8 wrote

>Given the market challenges of the last year, including a global pandemic, rising interest rates, tighter market conditions, and a looming banking crisis

Outside of "looming banking crisis", which is hyperbolic doomsday nonsense not supported in reality, weren't every single one of those conditions true when this was approved last year?

Yeah, interest rates hadn't been increased that much yet last summer, but there was zero doubt that was happening in the very near future.

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fishythepete t1_jdad3zh wrote

People in this state losing their mind over a building with private funding and some tax abatement because (pick one):

  • We need affordable housing not luxury apartments
  • There isn’t a demand for more luxury apartments

Were meanwhile totally fine with the city borrowing money to build a stadium for a sport without any proven demand and without funding secured for a major part of the project (housing).

And people wonder why we can’t buy beer at a gas station 😂

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waninggib t1_jdajata wrote

I don’t know a single person who is calling for more affordable housing that was okay with the stadium being publicly funded.

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Proof-Variation7005 t1_jdatob1 wrote

I would’ve made shrugged and dealt with tidewater if it had the 500 apartments or whatever it was supposed to include.

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bambooboi t1_jdawa75 wrote

Absolutely agree.

This state leadership needs to get its head out of its ass and focus on reality. We have an aging, as well as low socioeconomic demographic as a state. We are becoming increasingly strained in schooling, elder care (nursing), affordable housing (most structures in Providence are greater than 50 years old), and healthcare (Lifespan and CNE are collectively in greater than $100 mill in debt).

A soccer stadium should be the last of our worries.

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misterspokes t1_jdb7wtm wrote

Especially since the soccer team was fine with playing in Cranston and upgrading Stebbins...

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Mountain_Bill5743 t1_jdbemo3 wrote

You sound like me when I try to explain to people coming from MA why it's magically so much cheaper to buy a house here.

I think you covered all of your bases except for the pension nightmare.

Oh and climate change and all of our coastal towns at risk of flooding and in flood zoning.

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spokchewy t1_jdcax4w wrote

No proven demand? https://www.wpri.com/sports/rhode-island-fc-season-ticket-sales-break-record/amp/

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fishythepete t1_jdcqp5l wrote

Correct - no proven demand. They do not have record breaking “season ticket sales”. They have record breaking season ticket deposits - deposits are only $24 / seat, and there is no info provided about how much those tickets will actually cost or how many games will be scheduled, meaning you have folks who made deposits who are unlikely to actually buy tickets when they find out how much they cost.

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spokchewy t1_jdcs5o8 wrote

USL has 34 game seasons; we can assume 17 home games over a spring/summer/fall with very little entertainment competition.

Compare that to a 150 game season for minor league baseball; 75 at home.

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majoroutage t1_jddpwus wrote

Did you just argue against yourself?

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spokchewy t1_jddrf8m wrote

Harder to fill a stadium when you have 75 games. Still need to staff empty stadiums on gameday, that’s a problem when there are 75 games. There’s more capacity for other types of events (concerts, etc)

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majoroutage t1_jdds5f2 wrote

Season tickets means they're paid for whether or not there's a butt in them. And the numbers still don't sound good.

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spokchewy t1_jddv09q wrote

Something tells me there are literally no numbers you would think are “good”, since they’ve exceeded all expectations to this point.

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fishythepete t1_jdf2avy wrote

I’m just quoting from their website:

>How much will season tickets be? How many games are included?

We will have a variety of ticket packages and price points. We will also have various payment plans to accommodate different households and budgets. Ticket packages will include regular season matches, as well as select friendlies or U.S. Open Cup. We will know the exact number of games as we approach the 2024 season and have a better understanding of the league schedule.

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[deleted] t1_jdagqlh wrote

[deleted]

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Throwaway1231200001 t1_jdanuv4 wrote

I was against it when it was for baseball, I'm gonna be against it when it's for soccer. They were other avenues in which public financing should have been funneled to.

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Always_anxious27 t1_jdcb39b wrote

What about the 45 million dollar school they built that had faulty fire alarm equipment, then had a power outage because a worker struck something under ground with a machine, then the heating coils bursting TWICE and flooding the building forcing the kids to remote learn for almost a month with barely any notice to parents SCREW the soccer stadium

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majoroutage t1_jdabts2 wrote

>“The city’s top priority has always been protecting taxpayers,”

If that were true, there would have AT LEAST been a public vote to approve the project.

WE TURNED DOWN KEEPING THE PAWSOX FOR THE SAME AMOUNT YOU PROMISED THIS WOULD COST US.

Fuck you, Grebien.

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Heresrhody t1_jdcodhz wrote

Fuck the Pawsox. Why should taxpayers pony up to keep a wealthy team in the city?

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majoroutage t1_jdd1h08 wrote

Exactly. And exactly why would we want to spend more on another less popular sports franchise.

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heloguy1234 t1_jdab5h0 wrote

The whole project is a waste. It will cost 10 times as much as they predicted and the complex will be sitting empty in 5 years. All just a big scam so some scumbag politicians could thieve a pile of money from taxpayers.

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spokchewy t1_jdca645 wrote

There’s no way it will be sitting empty in 5 years. I think they have already sold over 3000 season ticket deposits. And if the Revs move to Revere, there will be another large influx of people from southern New England who really just can’t get enough soccer action.

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heloguy1234 t1_jdccyvj wrote

Bullshit. People will get bored of it after a couple games. It’s a novelty, that’s it. Nobody cares about soccer in the US.

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spokchewy t1_jdcfd9m wrote

Nah, just 69k for the Revs opener in Charlotte the other day. https://amp.charlotteobserver.com/sports/charlotte-fc/article272605007.html

And definitely don’t look at what’s happening in St Louis https://fox2now.com/sports/stl-city-sc/sold-out-crowd-incredible-atmosphere-sparks-st-louis-city-sc-in-home-opener/amp/

Or Atlanta, Nashville, Minnesota, and even in New England, where the avg attendance is over 20k and they sold more season tickets for this season than ever before.

Pay no attention to the upcoming 2026 World Cup either.

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heloguy1234 t1_jdcfx5u wrote

Take a look at MLB’s attendance numbers, now take a look at Paw Sox’s numbers. You think soccer is more popular than baseball? None of those places are RI and no one in New England, save a couple of hipster dipshits, cares about soccer or the 2026 World Cup.

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spokchewy t1_jdcgdy5 wrote

Sitting around 3 hours with barely any gameplay and singing god bless America between innings? Yeah that’s surely a recipe for success.

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heloguy1234 t1_jdcgu46 wrote

Baseball makes piles of cash every year. Where do you think it comes from? Soccer doesn’t make shit in the US.

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spokchewy t1_jdcj4tm wrote

https://www.forbes.com/sites/justinbirnbaum/2023/02/02/major-league-soccers-most-valuable-clubs-2023-lafc-is-the-first-billion-dollar-franchise/?sh=3ed47cf75324

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heloguy1234 t1_jdckz6u wrote

Yeah, because the LA market and the Pawtucket market are comparable. Why don’t you just post some articles about European markets? They’d be just as relevant.

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spokchewy t1_jdcsblq wrote

You literally said “soccer doesn’t make shit in the US”. Last I knew, LA is in the US.

Why are the markets not comparable?

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heloguy1234 t1_jdczxtr wrote

I refuse to believe that even a soccer fan could be such a mook that they can’t see the difference between the 2 markets.

If you actually read that article and understood what they were talking about you’d understand that that team is valued at 1 billion which doesn’t mean shit. Twitter was valued at 44 billion whe Elon bought it but makes next to no money. That team makes 8 million/year in profit according to the article and no one would pay 1 billion for it unless they had billions to throw away on a shitty investment with nearly 0 returns.

The good news for you and the dozens of fans you’ll be sharing the new stadium with is that you should be able to get really good seats for the couple years it’s open.

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spokchewy t1_jdd32m4 wrote

Why are the fans in LA different than the fans in RI, in your opinion? Really interested in your honest answer to this question.

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heloguy1234 t1_jdd6wo1 wrote

The fans, what the fuck are you talking about? You understand that the fans and the market are completely different things, yeah?

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spokchewy t1_jdde9nm wrote

Not really, dude. A market is made up of customers; in the case of sports, those customers are… drum roll… fans?

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heloguy1234 t1_jddh0sn wrote

This is a stupid comment and I hope it was made in bad faith because I have trouble believing anyone could be so clueless.

You’re not a baseball fan, right? Have you ever been to a Paw Sox game? How about a Red Sox game? Probably. Plenty of people in a market go to events that they are not really fans of. Do you understand now or do I need to dumb it down a little more?

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spokchewy t1_jddhyvh wrote

“In marketing, the term market refers to the group of consumers or organizations that is interested in the product, has the resources to purchase the product, and is permitted by law and other regulations to acquire the product.”

http://www.netmba.com/marketing/market/definition/

I think what you describe about baseball is exactly the problem. Most people don’t give two shits about the game, they just want to get drunk. Same with American football.

I’ve been to tons of baseball games. I grew up watching the PawSox in Pawtucket. I’ve been to World Series games at Fenway park. I know it’s a sport that is struggling to hold the attention of Americans - too long, too many games, too much nationalistic virtue signaling and fake patriotism.

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majoroutage t1_jddu6gl wrote

This all just keep circling back to the point of "if it's such a good idea, why can't they find the money? Why do they need to steal ours?"

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spokchewy t1_jddunw8 wrote

Because it’s also an investment in the community that will be attractive to a large segment of the population. You can think whatever you want about that angle, and only time will tell if it plays out true or not, as is the case with all large scale urban investments that are often partially funded with tax dollars.

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majoroutage t1_jddv9mf wrote

One that was never put up for vote after we already voted no on keeping the pawsox. They knew it wouldn't pass. Now surprised pikachu it would cost more than we were told.

This is a bad deal. One we don't want but has at least partially been forced on us anyway, and just went south.

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heloguy1234 t1_jdeds88 wrote

Do you even live in Pawtucket? Of course you don’t. You’re happy to gamble away our money on this foolish venture though.

You’re literally the only person responding to this post that thinks it’s a good idea. Where are all the other people that think this will work?

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spokchewy t1_jdf1ial wrote

When you are in an echo chamber, you are in an echo chamber. Not much else to say about that.

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[deleted] t1_je3q1e8 wrote

[deleted]

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spokchewy t1_je4hu17 wrote

What’s wrong with a defensive battle? They can be really exciting. Maybe the goalies put on a show, maybe the woodwork is hit multiple times. Regardless, there were 38 goals in MLS last Saturday so if you really need goals, there are plenty. And, the games are over in under 2 hours and there are no commercial breaks aside from halftime.

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Jfrenchy t1_jdaeztm wrote

It would be one thing if a seemingly useful project turned into a boondoggle ala The Big Dig, but why is RI cursed with wasting it’s money on projects everyone can see is a bad idea from the jump.

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Mountain_Bill5743 t1_jdf6h1s wrote

Rhode Island used to be brain drain central. People who are naturally talented and have a lot of potential in the public sector typically move on to greener pastures in municipalities like Boston since RI has a very low ceiling for ladder climbers and is also much less progressive to work for. Also, mind you, talented young politicians like Regunberg barely lose to milquetoast familiar names like McKee and then just take their talents to Harvard instead. Rinse and repeat.

We have some amazing and talented local politicians, but they're primarily at the hyper local level.

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RedditSkippy t1_jda9vy7 wrote

Glad that Pawtucket finally came to its senses.

I know someone who has looked at some real numbers for the stadium, and while he never got involved, he said that they were not great.

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imuniqueaf t1_jdarf26 wrote

So basically they have finally accepted this is a terrible idea that no one wants and found a convenient way to back out.

There must be an election coming up.

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spokchewy t1_jdca92j wrote

No one wants it, except for the 3000+ folks who have put down season ticket deposits.

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imuniqueaf t1_jdcky4k wrote

The deposit was $24 per seat. Let's see how people actually pay for the whole season.

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spokchewy t1_jdcsmif wrote

For 2023, more people than ever paid for the whole season just a few miles north in Foxboro, where attendance is over 20k / game.

Another aspect of USL is that you will have dozens if not hundreds of traveling supporters coming to Pawtucket for these games.

Yeah, soccer tourism is a thing, even in the USL.

https://www.uslsoccer.com/news_article/show/652221-strong-supporters-groups-rising-alongside-usl

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majoroutage t1_jdd79z1 wrote

Then they should have no problem raising the funds privately!

Maybe consider doing a Kickstarter?

I also can't wait to see all the tourists that are supposed to come in on the train to take a bus to downtown past downtown to this new stadium.

(For the record I'm fine with the train station. But the tourism justification was stupid. The reality is it's a commuter station. Which is okay. We needed it.)

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spokchewy t1_jddh9er wrote

It’s stupid to attract tourism to Pawtucket? Ok.

I travel all over the US for Revs games and we often see hundreds of out of town supporters for Revs games.

If you don’t think the RI vs Hartford rivalry will be interesting, that’s ok.

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majoroutage t1_jddhmam wrote

No, I said using that as a driving factor to build a train station in a location that's not exactly convenient for such a purpose was stupid.

And again, if there is so much money to be made from stadium operations then there should be plenty of opportunities for private funding. When so much of it is to be left on taxpayers that's generally a sign the real risk is higher than what they're trying to sell you. Tax money is not a VC fund.

And AGAIN, WHY WAS THERE NOT A VOTE?

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Familiar_Ad1485 t1_jdacsgc wrote

Fane Tower 2.0 - guaranteed this shit doesn’t get built.

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headphonesalwayson t1_jdatw5s wrote

I think I need to order another sweatshirt for the novelty of it.

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101955Bennu t1_jder1ic wrote

Rhode Island is the 14th best soccer market in the country, and soccer, per a 2021 Gallup poll, is the fastest growing team sport in the nation. Baseball, meanwhile, is the fastest declining. The team has already set USL records for season ticket deposits. The city and state chose this development over the PawSox because this offered a lot more to the city and state in terms of private funding in addition to public funding.

Everyone here seems eager to immediately get angry and dismiss this out of hand. “No one cares about soccer”, they’ll say, or “we should have kept the PawSox.” But the numbers disagree, and I think once the team gets going even more people will see the value in having a team in the fastest growing sport in the US at the heart of the largest urban revitalization project in Pawtucket’s history.

If you don’t like soccer, that’s fine. But there’s a lot of Rhode Islanders who do, and I’m choosing to embody Rhode Island’s motto of “Hope”. And this stadium doesn’t have to be limited to RIFC. The USL is forming a women’s professional soccer league, the Super League, and certainly an XFL or USFL team could end up calling the stadium home as well. This is a hopeful development for the city and the state. I honestly can’t even begin to convey how excited I am for it.

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bdpsych t1_jdad62h wrote

Maybe they can re-develop temporary housing until they figure out what to do.

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lightningbolt1987 t1_jdecx9u wrote

It is a fact, researched over and over again, that stadiums and sports teams in general are terrible public investments. Stadiums are empty 99% of the time and the whole area sits dormant. It only supports business a few hours here and there when it’s open. The “civic pride” factor isn’t worth it. This was an incredible waste.

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barsoapguy t1_jdafzpf wrote

Yeah like soccer was ever gonna take off in RI. This was a bad idea from the start , glad to see it’s on ice for now.

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