Why do we not have tolls yet? Are voters this shortsighted?

Submitted by WrathWise t3_zwxplf in RhodeIsland

I just came from visiting a “developing country” with better roads than our state… I feel from what I’ve heard it’s Rhode Islanders that keep voting down tolls as to not have to pay for driving around a small state but think of how many neighboring states use our roads… often literally just driving through it and adding to wear and tear. It doesn’t have to be heavy tolls but enough to create a better budget STRICTLY for improving the roads that seemingly ALWAYS need construction for the past 16-20 years or more.

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wutang2019 t1_j1xd02s wrote

This is RI. We will be funding some politician or contractor’s home improvements and vacations with those tolls.

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glennjersey t1_j1xox9f wrote

Don't kid yourself, that's going to happen in any state.

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overthehillhat t1_j20cuwm wrote

If we want the 100,000 lb trucks to pay almost $10 dollars

we could pay 25 cents for our 2,500 lb cars - -

that would be deemed fair in a court battle

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WrathWise OP t1_j1xgb8e wrote

Perhaps that’s how it used to be however, technology exists to make the transactions and funds all publicly viewable. It is not rocket science and if people want to stop having to invest in new tires or having their undercarriage damaged… it needs be done. Otherwise enjoy the indefinite depreciation I guess.

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WarExciting t1_j1z3ge8 wrote

Money is fungible. I don’t want them having access to any more.

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BitterStatus9 t1_j1xkr3s wrote

I guess you are being downvoted by people who like their fReEdOm.

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GrapeRello t1_j1yqc38 wrote

The winters are going to destroy the roads no matter what. Nothing to do with fReDoM

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buddhamanjpb t1_j1z3l9l wrote

There are states with worse winters than ours, that have infinitely better roads.

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dc_dobbz t1_j1za7vv wrote

But I wonder if their road networks were laid out in the 18th century

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GrapeRello t1_j1zfn7i wrote

I believe it’s because our soil is so sandy compared to other states.

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BitterStatus9 t1_j1zujmz wrote

Yes, so we'd better not fund adequate repairs! Makes sense!!

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dc_dobbz t1_j1za3k7 wrote

I think you’re underestimating how much people associate RI government with corruption. At the moment, the state is not much worse than most states (and considerable better than some) but even within my own lifetime that wasn’t the case. RI was one of the biggest pay-to-play states in the whole country at least through the 90’s. “Plunderdome” helped root out a lot of it but once trust is lost on that level it takes a very, very long time to regain.

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BitterStatus9 t1_j1zuza1 wrote

Lived here since 1982, so yeah, I know you are right. But one way you earn trust is by fixing the roads. It's cute to nod knowingly and wink when someone mentions corruption, but that just reinforces the prior "oh well, can't do anything!" attitudes. (I'm not saying you have that attitude, but most people do around here.)

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TheMusicGenome t1_j1xoom0 wrote

I didn’t grow up in RI but I live here now. Driving more than 30 minutes doesn’t bother me. I don’t want to pay to leave/enter this very small state.

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Proof-Variation7005 t1_j1z9mon wrote

There's a lot to unpack here but some quick points.

  • I'd bet anything that developing country doesn't have four distinct seasons, including a six month period where the temperature can fluctuate from well below freezing to above 60 degrees Fahrenheit in a week. Unless that changes or we dramatically reduce the size or volume of vehicles, there's never going to some point where potholes don't exist, roads don't need to be resurfaced, etc.
  • A lot of that perpetual construction is making up for decades of neglect or decades-old poor design. You seem to be suggesting there's all of this work being done because we're not funding roads properly, but the counter-point is: where do you think the money for that work is coming from exactly?
  • There's never been any question of tolls on the ballot that I'm aware of, much less multiple times. It's not a popular idea for plainly obvious reasons. Hell, some people steadfastly opposed the truck tolling that is done solely because they saw it as a gateway for car tolls.
  • Right now, that same usage tax is covered by the state / federal gas taxes. As fuel economy improves and hybrids and EVs become more common, it's pretty inevitable that tolls or a mileage tax will replace them. That's not a Rhode Island thing, thats an everywhere thing within the next few decades.
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[deleted] t1_j1xpfak wrote

[deleted]

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AttackonRetail t1_j1zm5b8 wrote

Doesn't it have something to do with the construction materials we buy as a state? I remember someone saying that the asphalt type we purchase has a weaker composition than other new england states and deteriorates quicker when combined with salt and freezing temperatures.

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March_Latter t1_j1yv3wr wrote

After the complete failure of the truck tolls where RI was forecast to lose money and put them up anyway, spending 2 dollars for every dollar collected I don't think Rhode Island Politicians should feel they can discuss tolls at all. They screwed the state proudly and intentionally.

Things that still need to be discussed due to this failure:

The "revenue" was supposed to pay for RhodeWorks and 100's of millions have been spent on that program

Is the money going to have to go back to the truckers?

RI screwed itself good this time, and now the politician who pushed it is Commerce Secretary. Nice work Rhode Island.

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overthehillhat t1_j20dcp1 wrote

>If we want the 100,000 lb trucks to pay almost $10 dollars
>
>we could pay 25 cents for our 2,500 lb cars - -
>
>that would be deemed fair in a court battle

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March_Latter t1_j20fojk wrote

We already proved charging $20 for truck crossing RI accomplishes a loss equal to double the money received.. To tax cars and lose even more money would be so idiotic even a Rhode Islander must be able to proclaim its stupidity.

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Proof-Variation7005 t1_j245kao wrote

>After the complete failure of the truck tolls where RI was forecast to lose money and put them up anyway, spending 2 dollars for every dollar collected I don't think Rhode Island Politicians should feel they can discuss tolls at all. They screwed the state proudly and intentionally.

I'm not really aware of any projections to lose money but the state made millions of dollars in profit after accounting for install costs, legal fees, etc. I think the total revenue was like 100 million.

We could spend years appealing the decision and still be in the black financially on the project.

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>The "revenue" was supposed to pay for RhodeWorks and 100's of millions have been spent on that program

It's $100,000,000 in revenue. Construction and the maintenance/management cost was estimated to be about $70,000,000 over the course of a decade. This still came out ahead.

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>Is the money going to have to go back to the truckers?

The existing ruling says nothing of the sort and the lawsuit didn't even ask for that. That has never been a risk.

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March_Latter t1_j24w0jb wrote

Um no... the original Rhodeworks number over 4 billion is listed in the article. The 40 million has never been achieved Net or Gross. To get closer they use the total including Newport bridge and thats not broken out well, at least 6 million there not counting expenses.

In fact there where no less than five articles available about the losses by tolling before Gina got promoted, now you need to go through the reports yourself and very quickly if you look past the glossy papers you will find like most state issues the numbers don't much the discussion or really even come close. We owe the toll company at least 4 million a year, that gets a little cloudy. We paid 70 million for the gantries but that did not include "all" of the costs. Just what they installed, more likely 100 million total buy in for set up.

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https://www.rilegislature.gov/pressrelease/_layouts/RIL.PressRelease.ListStructure/Forms/DisplayForm.aspx?List=c8baae31%2D3c10%2D431c%2D8dcd%2D9dbbe21ce3e9&ID=12850&Web=2bab1515%2D0dcc%2D4176%2Da2f8%2D8d4beebdf488

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Dextrous456 t1_j22977p wrote

They did away with a 10 cent toll on a bridge to Aquidneck Island years ago, thanks to political pressure. So the daily users of that bridge (I think it was Mount Hope) spread the maintenance cost of the bridge to the rest of the state, including many people who will never, ever cross that bridge in a car. It's ridiculous that we don't toll the people actually using the roads, while the many (mostly urban dwelling) taxpayers who don't drive are forced to pay for them through taxes.

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Substantial_Maybe_67 t1_j1yz6qm wrote

There are tolls for speeders in school zones and people who go through red lights on almost every corner. Money is not the issue.

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tbarlow13 t1_j1zbkee wrote

Those are traffic cameras that ticket people. They are not tolls.

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Substantial_Maybe_67 t1_j1zsw38 wrote

Correct. Either way it’s a profit to the city on a big level. Pawtucket made more than 4.5 million between 6/21 and 4/22.

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BigE1263 t1_j1zub3h wrote

I think since the tractor trailer toll didn’t go so well, they are probably gonna off put it off for a couple years.

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Jeb764 t1_j209xu2 wrote

Tolls are an awful idea. Jesus.

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manicmonday122 t1_j21wfod wrote

They implemented a gas tax years ago to fund fixing roads and bridges, they implemented the lottery to fund education, As you can see the roads suck, the schools suck, and Toll roads would just give them more money to pass along to their friends!

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WrathWise OP t1_j229w75 wrote

Except now with Distributed Ledger Technology on open source blockchains it becomes impossible to steal funds without it being obvious to anyone who desires to audit it.

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RandomChurn t1_j1ypy5g wrote

>visiting a “developing country” with better roads than our state

Most of those places don't have our winter weather which is apparently peculiarly perfect for creating potholes as some expert once patiently explained in this sub but I didn't retain the details. If we were farther north or farther south or farther inland, it wouldn't be anything like as bad, I gather.

(My rescue dog came from a remote village in central Mexico. As a one year old, he was driven a 1000 miles to the border, then in cargo from San Diego across country. Met him the next morning and he was sunny as ever! -- until the last short leg, from Warwick to Providence in my friend's van hitting every pothole that rattled the shit out of him, poor chap 😣)

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BMorris2526 t1_j1z1xux wrote

Most states that have tolls don't have income or sales tax. Thanks to the voters, RI is already a tax hell. We can't take any more taxes.

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Loveroffinerthings t1_j1z7v0e wrote

NY and NJ disagree with this and tax heavily and toll heavily.

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WrathWise OP t1_j1zhxm8 wrote

And I’ve lived in both : remember their roads very fondly despite way worse traffic than we ever have but clearly the people here are against better roads because they don’t believe an accounting practice / technology exists to counter the political corruption. Oh well shrugs.

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Loveroffinerthings t1_j1zk3d7 wrote

As an outsider to RI, it’s clear to see that many old school RI’ers are resistant to change, or are so scared because of corruption 30/40 years ago. My road is absolutely torn up, but the town has no money to pay for it, or so they say.

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Proof-Variation7005 t1_j1zaahh wrote

42 states have income tax. 46 states have sales tax. 38 states have at least some toll roads.

Rhode Island is very middle of the pack in weighted tax rates (accounting for everything), income tax rate, sales tax rate, etc.

If you're just going to make shit up, I suggest trying it somewhere other than the place where it'd take about 60 seconds for someone to call bullshit.

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Loveroffinerthings t1_j1z900z wrote

I’ve driven through many developing countries, but Chile(which is pretty well fully developed now) has toll roads, and they are great, even up into the Andes. Other ODEC countries with tolls have good and bad roads, France has private tolls, but nice roads with 130/140 KPH roads. Germany, no tolls, amazing roads, many unrestricted parts. Japan’s roads are great, but their public transit is also amazing. I think it comes down to priorities, greed, corruption levels, and driver care. If the driving public is kind, drives safely, no over weight trucks, and the government works for the ppl, you’ll get nice roads. RI and the USA in general are not the best drivers, the politicians don’t prioritize road safety, smoothness. We also don’t have much gas tax in RI compared to most countries, which lowers the amount in the pot.

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chessnutbrah t1_j26llhr wrote

All tolls and photo radar devices can catch ice picks to their grills

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WarExciting t1_j1z3csx wrote

Until this State can satisfactorily manage the money they already get from most of us then I feel no inclination to give them more. Fuck tolls.

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Proof-Variation7005 t1_j2087f4 wrote

Isn't that a bit arbitrary? in a system like ours, there's never going to be a point where everyone decides that something is satisfactory.

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B_Lam0728 t1_j1zy2xe wrote

Do away with sales tax and we can talk about tolls

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Wide_Television_7074 t1_j1y0g92 wrote

stop stealing our hard earned money — something is seriously wrong when 40% of a state works for some type of government

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