Submitted by WeakAndWeary t3_10ledsi in RhodeIsland
Overwhelm the system. They can turn off the power to everyone in the state. And they can't take us all to collections.
Comments
degggendorf t1_j5wsr5t wrote
Yes probably shut off eventually, but consumers have some additional protections in place currently.
New temporary rule, applies to everyone: no attempts to collect outstanding energy debt will happen until after March 2023.
Annual winter moratorium, applies to everyone: no utilities will be shut off for nonpayment between Nov 1 and April 15.
Year-round, for certain groups: no utilities will be shut off for nonpayment if you are a household with an infant, a seriously ill or disabled person, or elderly person.
Temporary rule, for certain groups: forgiveness program for energy debt accrued before March 2022.
Here's more info on all that and more: https://mlpb.health/digital-digest/ri/utilities-internet/
Demitrius t1_j5whmy0 wrote
Yes. They can.
WeakAndWeary OP t1_j5wjglb wrote
I know they can. But would they turn off power for tens of thousands of people? a) millions in lost revenue and b) how horrible would it look if they cut the power to thousands of homes?
It's one thing to do it to a hundred dead beats that won't pay. It's another to paralyze a whole state.
The idea is that we are the consumers and we should have the power (pun!).
EllisDee3 t1_j5wn4rr wrote
I don't think they care about optics. It sucks.
emaildylan99 t1_j5yrt78 wrote
Not lost revenue if people aren’t paying… kinda a flawed plan
SaltyNewEnglandCop t1_j5zz2jj wrote
Even if they shut off the entirety of the state, they’d still exist and still own their assets.
The state would likely have to come in and pay the bill for everyone, so you’d still be paying.
Coincel_pro t1_j5yamj8 wrote
Sad that this is being downvoted.
Proof-Variation7005 t1_j5wnufg wrote
This has the same vibe as the “let’s all storm Area 51! They can’t stop all of us” / “don’t buy gas on these days” / “general strike” ideas that come up every so often online.
The problem is the prisoner’s dilemma calculus where too many people aren’t going to bother so it’ll never have enough momentum. The hassle of a shutoff or even a late fee is going to deter way too many people to make it effective. And since it’s a trial in the court of public opinion, it’s worth mentioning that the majority who don’t participate are not exactly going to be sympathetic.
degggendorf t1_j5wt7xj wrote
Realistically, here's what would happen:
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Not many people would participate
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RIE would see non-debilitating loss of revenue
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The PUC will approve higher profit on distribution charges to make up for that lost revenue
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We're worse off than before
WafflesTheBadger t1_j5wzgpf wrote
I love the thinking but I also recognize that they'll find a way to fuck us over more.
Now if we could all find ways to go off-grid that would be a real way to do it.
The biggest problem is that utilities are monopolies. My ONLY option is RIE. I can't even get solar because my roof cannot support the panels. And it's not like I can call up Eversource to be like "hey can you beat this rate?"
Others with solar can't sell me their unused power because legally they have to sell it back to the utility company in exchange for credits (which ideally SHOULD lower overall price for every non-solar customer but it doesn't)
degggendorf t1_j5x2run wrote
> The biggest problem is that utilities are monopolies. My ONLY option is RIE. I can't even get solar because my roof cannot support the panels. And it's not like I can call up Eversource to be like "hey can you beat this rate?"
Supply is deregulated. You absolutely can call up a different supplier and see if they can give you a better rate. Just be careful to understand their terms before switching.
https://ripuc.ri.gov/utility-information/electric
There are also ground-mounted solar options you may have if your roof isn't compatible.
> Others with solar can't sell me their unused power because legally they have to sell it back to the utility company in exchange for credits
You can absolutely buy power from some one else, you just have to set up your own independent power system to get it to your house from theirs. Naturally if you're using the RIE grid to store and move the power, they are going to manage the process.
> (which ideally SHOULD lower overall price for every non-solar customer but it doesn't)
It does, but kinda in a roundabout way. See here if you want to dive in: https://upriseri.com/how-are-electricity-rates-determined/#:~:text=They%20start%20at%20the%20lowest%20price%20and%20they%20get
Coincel_pro t1_j5yaxp7 wrote
Yes you "can" find a different supplier but which of them are cheaper than the current RIE rate? Before RIE had a rate hike the only available options were more expensive, after RIE's rate hike they are still more expensive.
I am not sure if they were just that high before the hike, or if they had one of their own. The system for seeking an alternative is in place yes, but the alternatives are not cheaper making the whole thing moot.
degggendorf t1_j5yh3lw wrote
>which of them are cheaper than the current RIE rate?
I left the link so you could check for yourself, but I guess I can click it for you to tell you that SmartEnergy is currently cheaper.
You can also join a community solar project and save 10% off your total RIE bill whatever the rate is.
>the alternatives are not cheaper making the whole thing moot.
If ever other option were more expensive, that would mean you're getting the best deal possible. You see that as a bad thing?
Coincel_pro t1_j5yobh4 wrote
Hey that's great, 1st time in 3 years I've seen an advertised supplier actually cheaper than the default.
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Given that "the best deal possible" is 49% higher than what you were paying a few months before isn't really a deal it's just a way to normalize being shit on by a monopoly.
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It's not "Good" that alternative sources are now competitive because the default source has increased their pricing so much.
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I already have my own solar array so I did everything I could to avert this bullshit.
degggendorf t1_j5ypqzl wrote
> Given that "the best deal possible" is 49% higher than what you were paying a few months before isn't really a deal it's just a way to normalize being shit on by a monopoly.
Do you really think that the only reason rates are higher is because RIE is making more money? Nothing outside of PPL is influencing the cost of energy?
WafflesTheBadger t1_j5x4m34 wrote
Thank you for this info!!!
possiblecoin t1_j5x55rn wrote
It actually raises rates for everyone else (albeit by a tiny amount) because they "buy" at the retail rate which is more than the wholesale rate. They also have to manage irregular flows of power across the grid that they neither need nor want.
Coincel_pro t1_j5yakdt wrote
Collective action such as this is one of the best ways to get things done but Americans as a whole are terminally poisoned against it.
This is why shit like a 5% pay cut for like trash collectors gets half of Paris in the streets and shutting down a country until its reversed vs here where more horrible things happen all the time and you get downvoted and ridiculed for even suggesting that public protest / collective action even be attempted.
I'd like for things like this to occur but yeah in reality it'll be maybe 100 people round the state actually decide to do it and they just get cut off without any progress made at all.
Proof-Variation7005 t1_j5ywlkv wrote
I think the fatal flaw in collective action here is that the people who advocate for it fail to realize how many people don't agree with them.
Coincel_pro t1_j5z7k5z wrote
Do you think the majority of people in RI do not want cheaper electricity?
Proof-Variation7005 t1_j5zc9ju wrote
Enough to risk having the electricity get shutoff, paying extra in fees, or their credit score taking a hit? No.
Coincel_pro t1_j5ztmip wrote
Yes it is a calculated risk, what other pressure can be provided to facilitate change? Elections haven't done so, regulations haven't prevented it. When it gets to the extent that enough people can barely afford the service anyway then the likelihood of it happening increases.
Proof-Variation7005 t1_j5zzfhz wrote
It's not just the level of risk on the individual level, it's that the reward is such a low-percentage pipe dream that it feels like a waste of time and energy (pun intended) to even discuss it.
As for how to fix it? I'd maybe stop looking for short term solutions to long-term problems. The volatility of electricity pricing goes way deeper than corporate greed by any one company.
Coincel_pro t1_j60ao0e wrote
I don't disagree overall, but want to note that collective action is performed far far more often (for even lesser reasons) outside of the USA often to good result. I gave France as an example because they are particularly aggressive with it. It does absolutely get results but you need enough people to buy in. Americans by and large are too pacified (for lack of a better term).
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Love the pun btw.
possiblecoin t1_j5zii8c wrote
I think the majority of people in RI recognize that collective action won't bring new, cheaper generation on line.
degggendorf t1_j5yhhh0 wrote
>they just get cut off
IDK if that's just hyperbole or you really don't know, but you might want to brush up on the consumer protection rules we have in place. They can't shut anyone off in the winter, Nov 1-Apr 15.
Proof-Variation7005 t1_j5ynzfl wrote
And even then, you have to go a few months before you're at that stage. Even cable TV providers will need you to be 2+ months behind before they shut you off.
Coincel_pro t1_j5yooat wrote
And? The power company is going to let you keep the lights on indefinitely without paying? No, they'll come after the past due bills with collections and once you hit the cutoff date you'll be cut off.
The relevant point here is that will ultimately be the repercussion for collective action if its not done to an extent that massively impacts RIE.
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Forest ---- trees
degggendorf t1_j5yq3xk wrote
> No, they'll come after the past due bills
Collections activities are suspended through March as well. It really seems like you'd be able to offer a more nuanced/relevant opinion if you understood more of the picture.
Coincel_pro t1_j5z7rr7 wrote
Suspended not waived. Do you really think that RIE will just let you not pay bills for the winter then go back to normal afterwards?
degggendorf t1_j5z9g9y wrote
> Suspended not waived.
Yes, I said suspended. Are you being obtuse on purpose?
People could do what OP is suggesting and just not pay their bills until March 31 with zero repercussions. That would crush RIE's cashflow for the next two months, and get their attention. What would happen after that? Idk, that's where the discussion should happen.
You misunderstanding/misrepresenting reality to shut down any notion of a boycott based on shutoffs and collections that legally cannot happen just seems foolish, if not blatantly pro-capitalist scaremongering.
WeakAndWeary OP t1_j5zbz5x wrote
I want to believe that RIE doesn"t have infinite power to organize and enforce collections on a huge chunk of the state going deliquinent on their bills. I mean, collections agencies only have finite staff. They can handle some some small fraction of the state's collections. But not 50%+. The courts couldn't handle it either. What, we'd have the police dragging people from their freezing homes en masse because RIE screwed the state over?
If we "all" don't pay and screw their cashflow and inundate them with collections issues they could maybe get a message that the situation is friggin bonkers and exploitive.
degggendorf t1_j5zdgel wrote
> I want to believe that RIE doesn"t have infinite power to organize and enforce collections on a huge chunk of the state going deliquinent on their bills.
Through March, they have zero power to enforce collections.
> we'd have the police dragging people from their freezing homes en masse because RIE screwed the state over?
First, not paying a bill is not a criminal offense, so the police won't get involved.
Second, your house won't be freezing because RIE cannot shut anyone off until April 15.
Third, how do you see RIE screwing the state over? That 2% increase to their ROE that the PUC approved? Otherwise, the energy supply costs are a straight passthrough.
Coincel_pro t1_j5zuckq wrote
Are you even reading my posts? The one at the top of this chain where I am arguing for collective action?
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Instead you focus on the "power cut off" content, who gives a shit if its cut off now mid winter (thankfully not an option) or when its warmer. That's irrelevant to whether or not RIE would be impacted by enough people deciding at once not to pay.
degggendorf t1_j5zvmgj wrote
> who gives a shit if its cut off now mid winter (thankfully not an option) or when its warmer. That's irrelevant to whether or not RIE would be impacted by enough people deciding at once not to pay.
Those two are connected, don't you see it? The number of people who would be willing to skip a bill and immediately have their power shut off and account sent to collections is waaaaaaay smaller than the people who would be willing to skip a bill with zero repercussions for at least two months.
> Are you even reading my posts? The one at the top of this chain where I am arguing for collective action?
Yes, and I just read it again. It reads like you're trying to discourage people from even considering it. Here's a quick breakdown:
> Americans as a whole are terminally poisoned against it.
Peer pressure, saying no one does it so you shouldn't either.
> you get downvoted and ridiculed for even suggesting that public protest / collective action even be attempted.
A warning to not even talk about it
> they just get cut off without any progress made at all.
False info to further discourage it.
Look, I am sure you're not some undercover pro-corporate operative. BUT, if someone was one, I'd expect them to say very similar things. Start with a toothless word of support to appear to be on "the right" side, then dive into several reasons why no one should consider collective action.
Coincel_pro t1_j60ck54 wrote
This is literally the opposite of the argument I have made, not sure how you are so mixed up on this. Please try reading again without assuming I am speaking against collective action in any way (because holy shit am I not). As someone who donates an unhealthy amount of money to strike funds I am trying not to laugh ere.
I said people are poisoned against it because look at OP getting like -14 votes on just asking if collective action would be possible / a solution. As someone who has participated in strikes and protests numerous times the amount of vile rhetoric around them is eye opening, especially considering how often they are used elsewhere to good effect.
You yourself laid out your opinion of a realistic outcome which included "not many would participate" and "RIE would see non-debilitating loss of revenue".
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I would love for it to happen, collective action is utilized far far too little in the USA because people are generally poisoned against it / too passive in regard to the status quo. I lay out that its not likely but just as you said for yourself, that does not mean either of us dont want it to occur.
degggendorf t1_j60dr71 wrote
> You yourself laid out your opinion of a realistic outcome which included "not many would participate" and "RIE would see non-debilitating loss of revenue".
Right, and you'll notice that I didn't include misinformation about shut offs like you did, and I gave my opinion from the factual starting point I laid out here a couple comments ago..."People could do what OP is suggesting and just not pay their bills until March 31 with zero repercussions. That would crush RIE's cashflow for the next two months, and get their attention. What would happen after that? Idk, that's where the discussion should happen."
It seems even more confusing that you'd spread anti-action misinformation if you so heartily support the action. Surely it would be in your interest to promote awareness of the limitations to RIE's power, to encourage more people to participate in some collective action rather than just reinforcing the reasons why everyone should be scared to.
Coincel_pro t1_j617yb9 wrote
Ok you’re clearly just reading what you want to
degggendorf t1_j61iwfx wrote
Except none of it is really what I want to see. I'd rather see fact-based support for collective action rather than dejected hyperbole.
RivalSFx t1_j5zaal0 wrote
We all as a whole had the chance to change this.....but as a whole, we still voted the same bums into office.
[deleted] t1_j5wvunu wrote
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germanweenie219 t1_j5y7rbh wrote
I’m still going to pay it- but mine was $710 dollars which is a huge jump from the bill prior.
dollrussian t1_j5zaboa wrote
It’s a circus. I’m honestly shocked at my bill.
buddhamanjpb t1_j61hfww wrote
If only we as citizens could organize like this, our Government and our world would be such a better place.
Cash50911 t1_j662iue wrote
An alternative idea is to be to organize a partial payment...everyone just pay 100$ no matter what your bill is...They can't shut you off immediately, more people are likely to do it, and it will affect their cash flow.
MT_Photos t1_j5whl7i wrote
They'll shut you off