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Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_je1bszz wrote

>Why exactly would you think you are owed other people working to keep you alive?

Well obviously because it wasn't my decision to have a life in the first place. How is it fair to have existence foisted upon you by your parents, but they have no responsibility for the life they create?


Vic_Hedges t1_je1jmn4 wrote

So take it up with your parents. Tell them how unfair it is that they gave birth to you and how much you hate and resent them. Throw your hissy fit about how horrible they are and how you wish you were dead. That should make you feel better.

But don't foist that shit on the rest of society.


xlRadioActivelx t1_je1dbgz wrote

They are responsible for you, for the first 18 years. After that you’re on your own. Don’t like it? No one is stopping your from going back to not existing, or living in the woods alone.


yodog5 t1_je1i8mj wrote

Just because society tells us that parents should be responsible for their children, that doesn't mean they are.

Orphans are just the tip of the iceberg of examples; abuse, neglect, financial hardship, divorce, drug addiction, etc can all cause children to be without that support system.

This of course feeds into adulthood, and as we all know is one of the primary reasons for metal instability and repeating the cycle.

Modern humans weren't made to operate in modern society. They were made to operate in the small hunter-gatherer groups and agricultural societies of the past several thousand years. Back then, if your parents were abusive, you still would have been surrounded by a tribe (support system) and would have likely stayed with that tribe your whole life. Nobody is meant to be "on [their] own". Humans are social creatures after all.

We all need support systems, some people more than others, but unfortunately if your family isn't there for you in modern society, it becomes extremely difficult to find that later in life. People will tell you to "toughen up" or "that's just the way life is", but I would argue that it shouldn't be that way, and that society is broken if people are meant to live without a support system as an adult.

Telling someone to kill themselves if they aren't happy is not only toxic, but extremely ignorant.


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeb6l68 wrote

Right? "If you don't like your life, you can always just kill yourself, so why are you complaining?" is an exceptionally fucked up thing to believe.


xlRadioActivelx t1_je1ob96 wrote

I wasn’t actually telling them to kill themselves, the only point I was trying to make is the absurdity of complaining that you were born without your consent. If you’re really that upset you exist, well no one is stopping you from no longer existing.

And yeah the system is far from perfect, but saying parents are not responsible for their children at all is much further from the truth than saying they are.


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_je1esug wrote

Right, so your point is that it's fine for others to force you to exist without your consent, and if you're not happy with it you can just kill yourself, therefore it's all fine. I want you to be as clear as possible.


xlRadioActivelx t1_je1fe5h wrote

That was the thinly veiled implication yes.

Guess what, you get to choose if you want to exist or not.

But I’ll be sure to inform prospective parents to ask their unconceived child wether or not they’d like to exist beforehand.


pebblebrusher t1_je1l6lg wrote

Wow that’s a bleak outlook man. We’re all in it together. I think the point they were making is that we are coerced into making decisions because we have basic needs for survival that aren’t readily available to us without engaging in our capitalist system. When we have enough food and housing to feed the hungry and house the homeless, yet that doesn’t happen, we need to question the system we function under.


xlRadioActivelx t1_je1m2y0 wrote

The only point I was trying to make is the absurdity of complaining that you were born without your consent.


pebblebrusher t1_je1n9ui wrote

Yeah I totally agree there, bad framing from the other commenter


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeb6f9u wrote

Why is that absurd or bad framing?


pebblebrusher t1_jegawuz wrote

I mean, I agree with you, but it’s kinda meaningless to say we weren’t born with our consent. That’s true of every human ever, so like, what’s the point? I get where you were taking it and I agree with you on the topic, just kinda think there’s a better way to approach that argument


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeb6e69 wrote

Why is that absurd? I was. I would've preferred not to have been. Because now my options are struggle or suicide. And that's called coercion. When the choice is x or death, that's not a real choice.


xlRadioActivelx t1_jebckyc wrote

It’s not possible, and fundamentally never will be possible to ask for someone’s consent to being conceived, so it’s absurd to complain that nobody asked you. It’s like complaining that you have to breath oxygen in order to live.


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jec3gk6 wrote

That assumes it's fine to exist. Why is it ok to force existence on a person?


xlRadioActivelx t1_jeccnrh wrote

Most people are happy existing. And most people can choose to not exist if they want.

But sure, get on your soapbox and tell the world it’s unfair to have children because you didn’t ask them if they wanted to exist. Good luck with that.


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeg3dsw wrote

>Most people are happy existing.

Why does that make it ok to force people into it with the alternative being suicide? Most people like bread, forcing someone to eat on pain of death is fucking evil.

Look, I get it, you're not able to think abstractly or beyond your immediate experiences, that's fine, it's ok to lack the brain power. But when you have that limitation, it's better to just shut the fuck up and not crop dust the world with your ignorance.


jack-of_most-trades t1_jeg4zuz wrote

Get help.

You’ve yet to offer even a hint of how you would have things work because you are complaining about things which are fundamental to the human condition and cannot be changed. You think you see things from a sage and complex perspective when really you’re whining about the facts of life that every well adjusted human has already accepted.

No one gives a singular fuck that you didn’t give consent to being born, no one wants to hear you complain about it either so stop wasting oxygen.

I sincerely hope you find a path to happiness but I’m not holding my breath, you are a miserable fuck who is content to wallow in self pity over that which cannot be changed.


Vic_Hedges t1_je1lupy wrote

The fact that other people have worked hard to produce abundance doesn't somehow entitle you to the benefits of it.

If they DO give you some, be thankful for it. It's a gift.


pebblebrusher t1_je1mn8s wrote

I’m with you there. I am very grateful. I live an insanely privileged life, and because of my starting point as a white upper middle class man, it has been easier for me to work hard and succeed in a traditional capitalist sense. I am certain that I would have had huge hurdles to overcome if I had been born to poverty.

Your point makes sense in a true meritocracy, which does not exist in the US.


Vic_Hedges t1_je1p7h2 wrote

I honestly think that a huge contributor to the political divide is purely driven by emotional jealousy and vindictiveness, not by anything logical.

I think upper income people would be far more willing to make economic sacrifices if they were framed as charitable acts towards those less fortunate, rather than impositions by the lazy and entitled.

Or at least, they'd have a tougher time justifying their unwillingness to do so. Demonizing the poor is how you justify mistreating them, and when the poor are screaming about how you are greedy, lazy and underserving of your wealth, it's not hard to understand why people are anxious to dismiss them.


pebblebrusher t1_je1qkz8 wrote

So just to make sure I’m hearing you right, it’s poor peoples fault for being angry at a system that leaves them in the dust? I agree with you that people would be more likely to make economic sacrifices to benefit others if things were framed that way. But who is framing things that way? It’s the mainstream media pushing narratives, the impoverished don’t have that power. And who owns the mainstream media? The wealthiest among us. We can blame them, not the poor who are often (justifiably) disenfranchised by a system that doesn’t serve them.

Most people just want to feed their families and have a roof over their head, and it really is that simple. These narratives of poor folks being lazy or entitled just aren’t accurate and don’t paint the whole picture.


Vic_Hedges t1_je1sgef wrote

My point is that of course they're not accurate, but neither are the "rich people are all lazy and greedy" narratives. People on both sides of the spectrum are demonizing the other side because it makes it easier to hate them.

Be angry all you like, but that's not going to fix anything, unless you're angry enough for a real revolution. And I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet.


pebblebrusher t1_je2addy wrote

Agreed that we’re not near a real revolution. But I don’t like the both sides narrative. One side is in a position of power to make change. It’s not an attitude of rich people being lazy or greedy or whatever. I have no issue with rich people in general. I just think it’s absolutely unjustifiable that the wealthiest 1% has more wealth than the bottom 50%, and we have people starving in the land of plenty. And one of those two sides has the power to make that change. And I’m not talking about like, well paid athletes, musicians, lawyers, whatever. I’m explicitly talking about capital owners and the top 1%


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeb66ge wrote

Cool so you're fine with coercing people into work under threat of death, good to get that out in the open. Hope you have a further think about the principles you hold.


xlRadioActivelx t1_jebc3d8 wrote

No animal in nature gets to survive without “working” why would humans be any different?

What would your fantasy world look like?


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jec32gv wrote

Why are you basing your sense of morality on biology? Lots of animals involve violence in their reproductive process, are you saying violent reproduction is ok for humans just because it's "natural"/


Arsenic is also natural, does that make it good? Why do you make nature your metric for goodness?


xlRadioActivelx t1_jecc8rh wrote

Those are both such worthless points I’m not even going to justify them with a response. You don’t want to work. Fine. How does you vision of society function when people can simply choose to not work?


Apprehensive_Fuel873 t1_jeg3tg1 wrote

"I'm not going to justify them with a response... now here is my response." I suggest getting your own house in order before throwing out accusations.


And when did I say that society must function? If I don't think existing is inherently good, why do you assume I think society existing is inherently good? Frankly, you're just embarrassing yourself by showing just how profoundly myopic and ignorant you are. You cannot process these complex ideas. That's fine. I struggle with quantum physics. But that's why I don't talk about quantum physics. When you're an idiot, you should shut your idiot mouth, not get annoyed at others for pointing out your idiocy.


yodog5 t1_je1xiet wrote

A fetus cannot have a choice at existence unfortunately, so it's a bit of an absurd argument.

However, there's definitely the expectation that parents care for their children, and I'm sorry if you didn't have that support. I don't know if you're just posing the argument or you're actually in this situation, but if you are, here's some advice that helped someone I know who was in this position.

While it can be difficult as an adult, I think it would be beneficial to find a support system, through clubs or whatever you enjoy. Even an online forum if you don't want to go out. Everyone needs some support!

Support helps with personal responsibility, so while it may be on you to pave the way of your existence, surrounding yourself with people that you can share your life with can help you bear that burdon.

Take as much money as you can and invest; not just for retirement, but also in yourself! Make sure there's something you do every day that brings you some sense of personal accomplishment or happiness. Pets can help a lot too!

And finally, talk to a doctor if you haven't. You don't even have to go to a psychiatrist these days for medication that can provide you with the tools you need to succeed and be happy! It's as simple as 10 questions on a form at your family doc. Once brains are damaged (physically or just wired wrong), it can be impossible to fix it on your own, since they directly control YOU. Look no further than glioblastoma patients being told to touch their nose, and instead reaching out into empty space and thinking they succeeded (video upon request). So don't be afraid to talk to your doc about it, there's no shame.