Submitted by I-Am-Polaris t3_yf9awq in Showerthoughts
Comments
electricwagon t1_iu2ovvz wrote
I've seen a chicken eat shit out of another chickens cloaca. So they can't be dumb because nobody would do that unless they had a very well thought out reason to eat shit out it's great aunt's unihole.
CopsaLau t1_iu2t6w1 wrote
You’re right, that’s a pretty damn big brain move
Dogzilla66 t1_iu2gfzp wrote
So there’s a line somewhere, on the other side of which is guilt-free meat? Is it an oyster? Lobster? Pigeon? Shrimp? Octopus? Dog? And why does eating plants get a pass? There’s as good a reason to think a houseplant is as self aware as there is for say a lobster.
I don’t have any answers, just find this question fascinating
CopsaLau t1_iu2lusp wrote
I think we should start a diet of consuming exclusively carnivorous plants. We can call it the “literally nobody approved of this” diet and somehow manage to piss everyone off! Lol
Dogzilla66 t1_iu305rj wrote
But only after ritually feeding some part of yourself to the carnivorous plant. And we could compete on how hardcore committed we are by how much of ourselves we fed to the plants we’re eating
CopsaLau t1_iu3z4jt wrote
That’s just auto cannibalism with extra steps!
Dogzilla66 t1_iu4orxh wrote
You say that like it’s a bad thing
CousinDerylHickson t1_iu33794 wrote
I think you could infer the morality based on the organism's response to external stimuli. Like if you were to hold something down and it actively attempts to flee, then you could infer that it probably feels something that drives it to try and live, so maybe it might be morally wrong to kill something that maybe feels like it wants to live.
Dogzilla66 t1_iu350oa wrote
In the entire history of life, do you think there’s ever been an organism that doesn’t want to live?
CousinDerylHickson t1_iu35gu7 wrote
Well I think things like plants probably dont care on an emotional level, since it seems like all of their responses to external factors could be explained by simpler chemical mechanisms happening naturally. And ya, i agree that most animals seem like they want to live.
Dogzilla66 t1_iu3t1gn wrote
I’m not sure about plants, either. Their reactions might just be at a slower rate. Check this out:
https://allthatsinteresting.com/plants-defense-mechanism
CousinDerylHickson t1_iu4oy4x wrote
But I'd say the plant response is still a simpler mechanism than an animals flight or fight response, with many animals actually having a complex nervous system to choose a response and to actually be able to perform the (I'd say) more complicated response. Like for a plant, if it senses any damage, it would probably respond in the same fashion for the most part for all damage done, whereas lots of animals when damaged will consider many factors and their variance, like the amount of damage, the mode of damage, and how much danger it is still in (at least we can infer from how they respond to variances in the parameters), which will subsequently change its potentially complex response (like place foot here, balance, activate muscle fibers to move in a particular chosen direction, avoid obstacles, etc), which itself could be highly varying. I'd say this complexity in an animal's decision making makes it more likely that animals have feelings compared to plants, which while they may send out signals similar to ours in response to damage, they dont seem to be complex enough to make varying decisions based on those signals (which in animals would probably be interpreted as feelings).
Machevel t1_iu395d6 wrote
Seems ludicrous to judge the morality of a killing based on the usage of the corpse. Is it more moral to kill a person because they look like santa and you hang the body as a christmas decoration ?
CousinDerylHickson t1_iu9in3c wrote
I'd say ya if it's a nice decoration for nice people, and if the alternative is just tossing it out
Patient_Mixture9947 t1_iu3tlnl wrote
I’ve never seen so much wrong crammed into so few words. Amazing.
Dogzilla66 t1_iu2fno3 wrote
I expect our options will become more constrained for the next few decades, more people will live in conditions we would today call desperate. I wonder what those feelings of desperation will do to these kind of moralistic arguments. Or even just the fear of falling to a position of feeling that desperation.
RoboticXCavalier t1_iu300ub wrote
But chickens breed much quicker, also the chicken industry as a whole just minces thousands of chicks a minute if they are the wrong sex for their purposes. Trying to weigh up the morality of one mass meat producer against any other is a race to the bottom.
[deleted] t1_iu2dcp4 wrote
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[deleted] t1_iu2e1cl wrote
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[deleted] t1_iu2eo5x wrote
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ARandomWalkInSpace t1_iu2fyef wrote
By that logic cannibalism is more moral. 🙄 honestly, think a bit.
HoboAJ t1_iu31qeq wrote
Wtf, you think cows have less meat than a human? Have you seen a cow?
CousinDerylHickson t1_iu33ecj wrote
Have you seen your fat momma?
_lablover_ t1_iu3rdzp wrote
#wrecked
Edit: I just learned how to make text big on accident
[deleted] t1_iu2jmqy wrote
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Showerthoughts_Mod t1_iu6rl58 wrote
This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.
Remember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not "thoughts had in the shower!"
(For an explanation of what a "showerthought" is, please read this page.)
Rule-breaking posts may result in bans.
[deleted] t1_iu7yk8a wrote
[removed]
Showerthoughts_Mod t1_iu2cr9u wrote
This is a friendly reminder to read our rules.
Remember, /r/Showerthoughts is for showerthoughts, not "thoughts had in the shower!"
(For an explanation of what a "showerthought" is, please read this page.)
Rule-breaking posts may result in bans.
VeganGlitter t1_iu2fypd wrote
All protein comes from plants. If more people would stop eating meat, dairy, eggs, and cheese, humanity and the animals would live more peacefully. GO VEGAN and everyone wins.
I-Am-Polaris OP t1_iu2ghya wrote
Nah I'll just keep eating steak and burgers, it's the moral man's meat
TimmehJ t1_iu2o23d wrote
You better not murder any lettuce or onions while you're at it, you monster
CousinDerylHickson t1_iu33cjz wrote
I eat meat, but did you know cows have best friends, they play, and are curious?
VeganGlitter t1_iu2k09q wrote
"Nah I'll just keep eating steak and burgers, it's the moral man's meat."
And that's why you have bad morals. You support rape, torture, and murder to innocent beings. What is moral about that?
groovy_giraffe t1_iu2m2vx wrote
Aren’t all those human concepts? How can you apply them to animals? How is projecting our concepts onto an unwitting being moral?
GenPhallus t1_iu2p9v9 wrote
Animals definitely torture and rape (which falls in the torture category)
Ducks, cats, chimpanzees, dolphins, orcas. Play with their food, harass other animals for fun, spite, and I believe some species of ape have been observed having wars between families. I wanna say the word is "troop" for a group of apes.
And many animals definitely are somewhat aware of themselves. We've taught apes sign language, taught dogs and cats to communicate with sound boards. Just a matter of helping them make the connections.
Vegans would have a much easier time converting people if they weren't assholes about it, because they do have some solid points. I'm cool with plant based and other cruelty free options. If we can find a way to mimic burgers and steaks consistently at a similar or lower price point I'd happily give them up for good.
VeganGlitter t1_iu311tv wrote
Animals do not even scratch the surface of the amount of torture and rape done to other species. You making that kind of statement is like saying there is a glass of water in the ocean. Humans rape, torture, and murder animals systematically by the thousands every second. There is a VERY big difference. All animals have consciousness the same as humans. All feel pain and suffering just like humans. So if you make that distinction of apes, cats, and dogs having similar attributes to humans, then you would have to make the same connection for all other animals as well.
I find it sad that people actually believe that Vegans are assholes when Vegans are defending rape, torture, and murder of innocent beings, and the other is advocating their right to do so. Absolutely insane, but that's the norm for most of the world. Like, how brainwashed the human species is to reality is just sad.
At what cost is life? An animal takes more input than growing plants.
I-Am-Polaris OP t1_iu3v3pv wrote
Holy wall of texts, this is hilarious lmao
VeganGlitter t1_iu5dxmn wrote
I find it sad that you think this kind of discussion is "hilarious."
I-Am-Polaris OP t1_iu5fz4l wrote
Still funny as shit, I jokingly made a post I figured would be downvoted and ignored, now there's a massive war thats still going
618smartguy t1_iu4n6bn wrote
They are reffering to the actions of humans, so no I don't think you are applying human morals to animals.
Imagine if I said it's immoral to vandalize public property. That's applying moral standards to humans. Not projecting them onto inanimate public property.
VeganGlitter t1_iu5ayax wrote
What? I don't get what you mean. I apply human morals to animals? Is rape, torture, and murder to ANY being actually moral? What is your definition of moral murder? And I wouldn't say your example of vandalism works. It doesn't affect animals the same way my statement does. Nor does vandalism happen on the same scale.
618smartguy t1_iu6mzl6 wrote
>What? I don't get what you mean. I apply human morals to animals? Is rape, torture, and murder to ANY being actually moral?
Applying morals about killing things to a human is applying human morals to humans. That's my point. Other guy is on some nonsense about applying morals to non humans, as if you are telling a lion not to hunt.
>And I wouldn't say your example of vandalism works. It doesn't affect animals the same way my statement does. Nor does vandalism happen on the same scale.
It's an example of applying human morals to humans even though the thing being acted on isn't a human. It's not supposed to have anything to do with animals.
VeganGlitter t1_iu7w8hb wrote
Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying.
VeganGlitter t1_iu2zpxy wrote
That was a very broad statement. What do you mean aren't all those human concepts? Humans are animals. How can I apply what to animals? Do you really believe an animal is unwitting in knowing it's going to be killed? Do you really believe an animal is unwitting having its baby being taken away from it after it's born? Surely you can't put such labels as "unwitting" on an animal.
_lablover_ t1_iu3rb2f wrote
God you must really suck at parties
VeganGlitter t1_iu5dqps wrote
Same to you.
mattbackbacon t1_iu375oc wrote
Misleading.
The amount of plantmatter or the amount of processing needed to get comparable amino acids from plants that you would get from meat, is grossly unhealthy. Most vegetation is also inedible to humans, meaning without processed food or meat, much of the human diet is inaccessible for many.
The omni in omnivore shouldn’t be taken too literally. Humans are mostly adapted to eat meat and fruit (similar edibility to meat, but made mostly of carbs)
VeganGlitter t1_iu57ox2 wrote
I don't believe this is correct. "The amount of plantmatter or the amount of processing needed to get
comparable amino acids from plants that you would get from meat, is
grossly unhealthy." The leading cause of death in America is from the Standard American Diet. Which is to say, eating meat, dairy, eggs, and cheese. Also I recommend reading the book "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell. It shows a long term study on a massive scale of eating Vegan plant based for health reasons. Also if your claim was correct, then hospitals wouldn't serve hamburgers, hot dogs, pizza etc. They would serve raw fruits and vegetables. And what happes when people eat more raw fruits and vegetables, their health usually improves.
Most of the food that is accessible to the majority of the worlds population IS easily accessible. What are you talking about it's not accessible? Making a profit off an animal is different than making a profit off plants. There are more similarities to humans being herbivores than carnivore or even omnivore. I recommend you watch this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5wfMNNr3ak
mattbackbacon t1_iu5kr7z wrote
Pretty sure “more than your stomach can hold” is at the very least “grossly unhealthy”. Hell, that’s being generous.
And by not accessible, I mean exactly what I said. And I explained why leading up to that statement, but I guess you’re just illiterate. Most vegetation is inedible to humans. Humans are categorically, biologically, and digestively nothing like herbivores. Most of the “vegetables” we eat aren’t vegetation, they’re FRUIT.
We eat the stores of glucose, fructose, and starches in plants. Cellulose is only digestable by herbivores, something we are not. As such, cellulose’s only function in our bodies is as a dietary fiber.
You’re not going to subsist on the grass in your yard, though judging by your lack of understanding of k-5 biology, I’m guessing you’ve never touched grass.
VeganGlitter t1_iu7vc3v wrote
I wouldn't consider that being generous but ok. I don't over eat. If you think the food the animals eat is free range you're incorrect. It's all farmed. Most people wouldn't harm an animal in real life if the animal was put in front of them at a restaurant. Humans ARE more herbivore than you may think. Our digestive track is about 8 times longer than a carnivore, a big characteristic of an herbivore. Our teeth are flat, and our jaw moves side to side, another big characteristic. Our gut DOES have bacteria to digest starches and plants, I think the process starts with amylase.. And our eyes can see color, another characteristic of an herbivore. When we see deer or squirrels, we don't get locked in to it, we are able to stop and look away and think. All characteristics of an herbivore. Also I don't eat grass, but I have tried a short of wheatgrass before.
mattbackbacon t1_iu8kjer wrote
You act like only carnivores and herbivores exist. Again, did you ever graduate from 5th grade?
The word you're looking for, that our digestive system matches, is frugivore. Thing is, frugivory can evolve in species that were previously carnivorous or herbivorous, but with primates, far as we know it's the former. The fact that we don't have key features of an herbivorous digestive system, like the production of cellulase or the symbiotic relationship with a microorganism that does produce it, speaks volumes of that. Salads have very little caloric value to humans, because leaves are mostly cellulose. Micronutrients in vegetation are also quite the problem for us, because they're not as bio-available to us as they would be to an herbivore.
Not only this, but most plantmatter we eat is cultivated by us, biologically manipulated by us. Many plants we eat fruits from today can't even reproduce, we have to make clones and chimeras of them by methods such as grafting. Many of these plants used to be completely unsuitable for consumption, but we cultivated them anyway. Why? So we don't have to hunt as much. Then we started ranching animals, including them in our agriculture.
Ultimately, your whole argument stands on a house of cards built on ignorance and out-of-date dietary classification.
VeganGlitter t1_iu916oa wrote
That was the first time you asked if I graduated the fifth grade. Can you count? Or did you not graduate first grade? Obviously the education system has failed both of us, so why not educate yourself? I recommend watching this video, it addresses the topics we have already discussed. https://youtu.be/ROI0Anhc01U
Humans can digest plants. Vegans don't only eat lettuce. You go from humans came from carnivorous primate argument, to arguing how plants are being grafted in order to cultivate them. That is a part of gardening and farming. For example the carrot wasn't from nature in that same sense. I'm not against carrots, are you? An animal example is chickens. They have been bred in very unhealthy ways for meat and egg laying. There's a big difference between the two. One is a vegetable, one is a sentient being. So which is worse? Grafting a Cavendish banana. Or enslaving an animal? I would say the animal doesn't deserve that way of life and treatment. This video addresses your statement for cellulase. https://youtu.be/l0jbQG9H79g
You can't say my information is out dated. You don't know where I'm getting my information from. I could just as easily say that same ignorant statement to you as well, but then we both would be wrong. I don't play with cards, I'm too busy trying to help animals.
mattbackbacon t1_iu92uz8 wrote
That was a callback to
> your lack of understanding of k-5 biology
But you'd get that if you had the reading comprehension of a first grader.
Morals have nothing to do with my diet. Morals are subjective, and dietary needs outweigh them.
You're again conflating fruit with vegetation. If you can't understand the difference, there's no reasoning with you. Frugivory can emerge from either carnivorous or herbivorous ancestry, and with primates, typically the former.
If you're not going to cite anything outside of propaganda, there's no sense talking.
VeganGlitter t1_iu94vil wrote
Ok fine, what information in elementary school biology are you referring to? You've obviously stated you have no morals when it comes to your diet. I know the difference between a fruit and a vegetable. Not propaganda, facts. I recommend you watch the videos first before saying that.
mattbackbacon t1_iu98gam wrote
M8, if you had the reading comprehension of a kindergartener you'd know what I'm referring to, because I literally said it in plaintext.
Anyway, your first "source" is a literal propaganda channel, the second is just a guy's rambling video that doesn't cite sources, but not to worry, the legwork can be done easily to both determine what is factual in the second link, or at least likely factual, and what isn't. What is likely factual, is that if there is cellulase anywhere in the human digestive system, it's in the mouth, which would encourage chewing on leaves to suppress appetite or boredom, which is something we humans do. It is not in the gut, however, and instead cellulose is one of the indigestible carbohydrates we humans only use as fiber and not as a damn thing else. Eating plants as a source of fiber to aid the digestive tract is also something carnivores and omnivores do. Some even constipate themselves with this fiber to hibernate, and there's a carnivorous bear in asia that through human intervention and its own laziness for hunting, currently subsists on what little nutrition it can squeeze out of a plant that used to be just its fiber source.
Regardless, as your sources contained propaganda to begin with, you're not worth anyone's time, as it shows (as if you didn't show already in this thread) you're willing to be dishonest to make your nonexistent point.
VeganGlitter t1_iu9acrc wrote
I wouldn't say propaganda. If you watched the videos you would see one is a doctor, and the other shows nutrition labels as their example. He actually reads a lot of science literature too. The bacteria to breakdown cellulose isn't just in the mouth, it's also in the digestive tract. I recommend watching the video of the doctor again. I'm not a bear. A bear is a bear. You literally gave the same argument in the video. That's why I linked those videos. Also shame on you for saying I'm not worth anyone's time. You didn't answer my question on what information was provided in elementary biology.
mattbackbacon t1_iu9du0w wrote
I did. I answered it before you asked. But I guess I can't expect literacy from someone with either Vegan or Glitter in their name, let alone BOTH
VeganGlitter t1_iu9g5q2 wrote
I don't know what elementary biology topic you are referring to. We have talked about many topics. Which topic/ topics were you referring to with elementary biology? I already said humans have the ability to digest starch and cellulose. I already said farming practices are immoral and un natural. And you haven't given any arguments that are worth not being Vegan and investigating Veganism.
CopsaLau t1_iu2dhsl wrote
But it’s a more intelligent life with emotional connections, now how do you feel about it?
This is why I exclusively eat turduckenporbeelambish