Kallasilya t1_itpswdy wrote
Reply to comment by Sabz5150 in Women will have equal share of seats in [New Zealand] Parliament with Soraya Peke-Mason's swearing-in by giblefog
Sorry, I'm genuinely confused. Could you please explain why accepting the same thing for both men and women (preferential treatment/quotas) is 'bias'? Because 'treating people equally' is the opposite of bias, by definition...
EDIT - sorry, I think I get what you mean now with unfairly vs 'unfairly'.
You're saying that it's fair for men to dominate in workplaces and politics, because 'meritocracy' - they're inherently better, at everything, on average, than women? Is that correct?
Sabz5150 t1_itpt4d5 wrote
Why is it unfair when its a man, but "unfair" when its a woman?
Kallasilya t1_itpw4ph wrote
Well, it's unfair for both, obviously. I used quotation marks for women in the sense that quotas are an established practice designed to address inequality, which can be interpreted as giving women an unfair advantage.
However, it's rare for people who consider quotas to be unfair who also recognise that men dominating all high-powered/high-paying roles is unfair, too. But that position is logically inconsistent. If getting a job based on your gender is bad, then getting a job based on your gender is bad, whether you're male or female. (The only way to 'logic' out of this position is the blind belief that men are in positions of power due to innate superiority - i.e. if you admit to being a straight-up old-fashioned sexist, which surely no thinking person would do).
As you said, literally the only way to make it 'fair', in theory, is to have 50/50 quotas for men and women for everything. But that's what gender quotas already are, and it sounds like you don't think they're a good idea! Hence my confusion.
(If women wanted revenge, the quotas would be to have 80-100% of all powerful roles filled exclusively by women for a couple of millenia or so. I don't see anyone proposing that particular strawman, however.)
Sabz5150 t1_itut94j wrote
>men dominating all high-powered/high-paying roles is unfair, too
As is men dominating the blue collar, labor intensive, often dangerous roles. But we don't hear about that for some odd reason.
Kallasilya t1_itx1o74 wrote
Yeah, because women LITERALLY weren't allowed to even apply for these roles until recently, and there's still massive sexism within a lot of manual labour industries. It's almost like (gasp) increased equality in the workplace could help to solve this issue too!
Sabz5150 t1_itx599l wrote
>Yeah, because women LITERALLY weren't allowed to even apply for these roles until recently
Women helped win WWII in such jobs. Turns out they are fantastic welders.
>and there's still massive sexism within a lot of manual labour industries
Blue collar manual worker here. No. The women that do work here would not tolerate it. That stereotype is breathing its last breath thankfully.
> It's almost like (gasp) increased equality in the workplace could help to solve this issue too!
Its about making the proverbial horse drink, there is water all around. Its not all that high paying, not clean at all, and in rather undesirable temperatures at times. Not exactly what you described as the jobs that women are gunning for. Is there a drive to get women into blue collar like there is with STEM?
Kallasilya t1_itzbet5 wrote
Despite (I assume, forgive me if incorrect) not being a woman and (from what I can see) not being active in any feminist subs or spaces, you apparently think you already know all the answers to the issues of workplace gender politics. I don't really have any more energy in trying to discuss this with you as it seems you're not interested in considering other viewpoints. Cheers.
Sabz5150 t1_itznec4 wrote
>you apparently think you already know all the answers to the issues of workplace gender politics.
Well they teach us this in the industry: if you have to force it, you are doing something wrong.
Kallasilya t1_itzot24 wrote
Ah yes, as we know, all social change has been brought about by groups of people quietly sitting back and doing nothing.
;)
Sabz5150 t1_itzpc87 wrote
Its also never been rammed down one's throat. That's what the Right does.I am not saying change should not happen, but it should not be forced with quotas and the like.
Kallasilya t1_itzqg0h wrote
Okay I said I'd let this drop but I can't let that take stand... Women got the vote by going on hunger strike, smashing windows, and setting shit on fire! Societal change (not just for women but for all groups) has always been 'forced'. It's the only thing that's ever worked.
And the people in power have never, ever liked it either. But give it a few decades and hopefully all of these measures will be in the past.
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