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[deleted] t1_iwj5icp wrote



wijenshjehebehfjj t1_iwjafhk wrote

It’s absolutely progress if the religious position is “do what you want but don’t make us participate”, instead of “we don’t like that so no one can do it”, which was their position on everything since forever.


MrsApostate t1_iwlgrm5 wrote

It is progress, I agree. However, given that the Mormon church has been dragged toward it kicking and screaming, I'm not inclined to give them any sort of kudos for it.


TauKei t1_iwkhjf5 wrote

It is progress, just not on their part. They were forced to move from "nobody gets same-sex marriage" to "we won't stop you, but we won't participate". That's societal progress.


apathyontheeast t1_iwlc2m2 wrote

"And we want to enshrine our ability to discriminate in law" is the rest of it.


TauKei t1_iwleqo7 wrote

You missed my point. I explicitly said the progress isn't theirs and I never said we were there.

My point is their (overt) goal has been forced away from "our brand of discrimination should be enshrined in law" to "please let us discriminate in our domains", a far more constrained goal. This shows that they no longer consider their former goal as achievable, due to society's progress toward acceptance of LGBTQIA rights. That is the progress I'm talking about.


apathyontheeast t1_iwlff1a wrote

Oh, no. I was agreeing with you, just saying the quiet part out loud for the audience.


andthendirksaid t1_iwjag3f wrote

Yeah this is pretty transparent and I came to say the same shit. The mention of their willingness to respect the rights as a "you do it your way we do it ours, and that's okay." is absolutely calculated and will be referred back to when they're asked what's up with that.


PizzaPet t1_iwldtvp wrote

Who is gonna ask them what's up? We know Mormons don't support gay people and they shouldn't have to. Ask the writer of this article what's up with the misleading headline? That's just bad journalism.


andthendirksaid t1_iwnqsl5 wrote

That's basically what I mean. They know damm well they could never do it on the UT state level or anything but it'll serve as a goodwill counterweight like "we support(ed) their right to legal marriage, not in our churches now leave us alone". Fighting the tide isn't worth it and they can see that and while its not the most hopeful endeavor but some people are looking to reform the church and now the separation of church and state argument is going to be used to allow churches to keep only marrying straight couples rather now that the work is done legally there.


SilverNicktail t1_iwjat2k wrote

Just like how they had a revelation on polygamy on the eve of legislation banning it.


HowOffal t1_iwjbtg0 wrote

Polygamy was already banned prior to the 1890 Manifesto. The Church was in deep trouble—Congress had disincorporated the Church and confiscated its assets—so this revelation served as a Hail Mary play to save the Church.


Cylon_Skin_Job_2_10 t1_iwjfi6g wrote

I’m not exMO, but exJW, so oddball fundie evangelical cousins. I look at it this way. If we can keep religion from impacting broader secular life through legislation, it’s a win.

The work of pushing these religious institutions to internally stop using their belief system to be bigots, will take place on the social front. Give the religions their little safe space so they stop using their numbers to pressure legislators to fuck up the laws for the whole country, and then take them to task in the court of public opinion for how their bullshit ideas hurt people regardless. It’s a battle these religious institutions are slowly loosing and they will either have to change or die off.


swiftsafflina t1_iwlmcm9 wrote

I grew up mormon and can confirm that this is a political move and nothing else.


Valkyrie5984 t1_iwvmzls wrote

I friggin knew it! I read this headline and immediately was suspicious, having read up plenty over the years of this glorified cult and all of their gross racism, sexism, etc and other oppressive human rights abuses...i thought, there has gotta be an angle Im not seeing yet.

Yeah...these awful places need to be abolished.


XD332 t1_iwlra7a wrote

Imagine wanting to force people to do something they are uncomfortable doing and thinking you’re the good guy. People need to just live and let live. They can still do their thing while everyone else does theirs.


HowOffal t1_iwm240n wrote

Imagine forcing universities to admit female students.

Imagine forcing white business owners to serve black customers.

Or perhaps you could imagine that the civil rights progress we’ve made wouldn’t have happened if we hadn’t pushed people to do things they weren’t comfortable with.


[deleted] t1_iwjwymm wrote



HowOffal t1_iwjzgz2 wrote

Hi, thanks for calling me a bigot. Very kind. I didn’t call the Saints bigots, so I’m not sure why you decided to resort to name calling.

The reason I claim this isn’t actually progress is because the Church is making a calculated move in order to inhibit the actual progress that they fear, in the same way that “separate but equal” wasn’t truly progress but rather a concession that ultimately served to protect white supremacy.

I appreciate that you read this as a “you do you, we’ll do our thing, live and let live” sort of momentous leap forward for this religion. But as a religious studies scholar who works primarily in the field of Mormon Studies, I hold a different interpretation. We can disagree peacefully, and that is the basis of a democratic society.


Dameaus t1_iwk8npc wrote

or, you are bigoted against this church and are just trying to make what is CLEARLY progress, into something more sinister. if you were truly into studying this church, you would know that they dont refer to themselves as "mormon" or endorse referring to the church as the "mormon" church...... so you wouldnt refer to it as "mormon" studies eithers. anyone who refers to themself as a "scholar" can just fuuuuuuuuck oooooooff as far as im concerned. a little too full of yourself maybe.


HowOffal t1_iwkamxt wrote

You are clearly not willing to have a discussion in good faith. How embarrassing for you.

For the past 200 years, the Saints have embraced and rejected and embraced and rejected the term Mormon; you might have noticed that I did not refer to them as Mormons. I am, however, in the field of Mormon Studies, which is the term used in academia, even by academics who are practicing Saints, because it refers to religious communities (including but not limited to the LDS) that follow the Book of Mormon. Your feelings about this are irrelevant. Here are some links to Mormon Studies programs, since you are so convinced that I’m wrong.