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nico87ca t1_j0cnthb wrote

I'm going to get down voted to death, but it's fine.

For the equality of genders, shouldn't people with a Y chromosome have either a money or extra leave compensation?


Kaz-Marie t1_j0csiru wrote

No, folks who don't menstruate don't need access to policies meant to help folks who do. It's similar to how non-disabled people don't get access to services like disability and accomodations that help people who are disabled.


nworb200 t1_j0fbgjw wrote

Those are government funded services, this appears to be funded by businesses.


Medical_Insurance447 t1_j0cxezx wrote

I don't think comparing a menstrual cycle to a disability is going to do you any favors in regards to public opinion on this matter.


Kaz-Marie t1_j0cxt3u wrote

That's why I said it was a similar mechanism of access, not the same. I do know that, for some folks, the pain they experience from periods is so debilitating that they have had to get disability accommodations for it, so it's not an entirely irrelevant comparison for everyone. Generally periods are manageable, but folks who experience debilitating pain during theirs should have access to adequate accommodations such as this policy.


Medical_Insurance447 t1_j0cyl76 wrote

Gotcha. Thank you for clarifying, and I apologize for any over-simplification or misunderstanding on my part.


aKnightWh0SaysNi t1_j0dcw7x wrote

Letting somebody not work isn’t an accommodation. People should be paid to work.

Disability exists to compensate people who cannot.

If menstrual leave is given to people who cannot work for a few days every month like clockwork, it isn’t fair to ask the company to pay for that.


Kaz-Marie t1_j0deehz wrote

Then what is an alternative solution you propose to accommodate those who are debilitated by menstrual pain and cannot work during those days?


aKnightWh0SaysNi t1_j0df282 wrote

A program similar to disability where the burden of paying for the financial impact of their lack of predictable availability and productivity be shouldered by taxes, not by employers.

Someone needing this time off every month results in the employer receiving their salary from the government times 1.something to offset the major inconvenience of hiring someone with that requirement.

Otherwise, nobody will want to employ them.


Kaz-Marie t1_j0dguts wrote

I appreciate the thoughtful response, that sounds like an excellent solution as well. I'm glad that the conversation around this is starting, as so many of us have been gaslit or flat out not believed when asking for help with menstrual pain accommodations - when I was a kid, it took me throwing up all over the floor in high school from pain for them to even consider letting me go home to rest. I hope the culture around forcing folks to work at normal capacity during intense periods can start to be dismantled.

For the method that Spain will be trying out, I trust (for now) their solid anti-descrimination laws around the workplace to prevent hiring descrimination. The US doesn't have as good protections in the same sense so I think a government based program like you suggested would work better here - anecdotally, employers here have been awful to my peers who have debilitating periods.


WarlockEngineer t1_j0cyatd wrote

Dawg, I would take not having periods at all over having painful periods that I need to call in sick for.

If you are sick and in pain for any reason, you can call in sick. But women who get these are told "doesn't count, suck it up" and get denied literally everywhere.

Cowboy tests a period pain simulator


yellowkats t1_j0cojy6 wrote

This is making it equal. Men don’t generally have to refresh their wombs once a month in preparation for their potential future child, they’ve already got one up on women.


nico87ca t1_j0cqbs7 wrote

Uhh what?


yellowkats t1_j0cse9u wrote

Women are expected to work consistently throughout their menstrual cycle when we do not consistently operate at the same level throughout the month.

Most women are fighting some combination of cramping/depression/brain fog/nausea/low energy/breast pain/intensified emotions for at least a week every month. Not to mention the blood part and everything that goes with that.

We can’t currently take a week off work every time we have our period, so we suffer through it. Men don’t have to deal with any of that, so women are currently at a disadvantage.


bofh000 t1_j0csjm4 wrote

Do you need a book to explain that? Or are you more of a cartoon person?


nico87ca t1_j0cvmhw wrote

Having a uterus is not a free pass to get everything...

The justification of "i have a uterus so I'm entitled to have more sick days than a man" feels absolutely unfair.

Should older workers get more sick days than younger workers?

I want equality...


bofh000 t1_j0d2y66 wrote

Yes, older workers should get more sick days. It’s the mark of a developed society to be able and willing to help all its members.


nico87ca t1_j0d3skl wrote

But they don't... My point exactly


bofh000 t1_j0dduh1 wrote

That’s a failing we should strive towards fixing.


amscraylane t1_j0euqkm wrote

What seems unfair is I have to pay a biological monthly bill each month, which costs me literal money with pads and Midol …

This is why moms need to start talking to their sons!!


Kelmon80 t1_j0fphx8 wrote

If pads are so expensive - tampons cost you $2000 over your entire lifetime. That's around $2 a month. Far, far less than I spend on condoms. Using a product that's 3 times more expensive is a choice you make, and can't really complain about.

And cheaper solutions exist. Menstrual cups last for ages, and are a one-time purchase, making your lifetime period costs go into double digits.

Man, if I could buy a single, reusable condom for $15 or so that lasts me 10 years, that would be incredible. Sadly, condoms only last that long for incels.


furiousfran t1_j0gl93h wrote

You choose to fuck, I never asked for this shitty sack of meat that only bleeds and hurts

>tampons cost you $2000 over your entire lifetime. That's around $2 a month

LMFAO sure dude


amscraylane t1_j0gqotq wrote

You sound angry. Is it your time of the month?

Although the menstrual cup is a great invention, it is not practical for everyone. You have to fish it out and clean it. Can you imagine being in a public restroom and having someone come to the sink and clean their cup out?

And then you’re equating having an orgasm and the product used to prevent pregnancy to one that absorbs blood.


MarkVarga t1_j0cxso2 wrote

This extra break absolutely makes sense but it's only fair if these off days will be deducted from the salary as well. But that leads us back to the "women earn less than men" issue.


amscraylane t1_j0eugdx wrote

So you’re getting a break for essentially a woman bleeding every month? Your body is biologically inclined never to revolt.

Where then is my compensation for you having a day of leisure while my uterus is shedding its lining and I am curled in a ball with my heating pad wondering if it is going to be a fart or I am going to shit myself?


Louloubelle0312 t1_j0go8oc wrote

I so read this wrong at first, and thought you were saying having a day off for your period was a day of leisure. Then I read the rest. You've got it spot on. I don't know if you have endometriosis, but a period is still pretty bad, even if you don't have it. I do, but my daughter does not, and she still has days when she has her period where all this is going on. God, men just don't get it. They also don't get they've already got all the privileges. How in god's name do they think they deserve more, when they have nothing wrong!


amscraylane t1_j0gs4n6 wrote

I do not know how anyone lives with endometriosis.

I was having this topic awhile back on another sub and a man suggested they get horny leave because women are not capable of being horny, and it is debilitating for man.


Louloubelle0312 t1_j0hz3rx wrote

Just when I think some men can't get any worse, there always someone. How do creatures like this find partners?


MarkVarga t1_j0u7kdm wrote

> all the privileges

Ah yes. Like 80% of suicides, 99% of war related deaths, a lower life expectancy by several years, 92% of children ending up with their mothers after divorce, sexual harassment against men is being taken as a joke or even a favorable outcome, in quite a lot of countries men can't be raped in a legal sense because it's defined as forcefully inserting something in the other person's body, women's day being a celebration all over the world while men's day doesn't even warrant a doodle on the Google home page, quotas sometimes causing the selection of less talented women over more talented men, 2000+ centers for female SA victims with only a single one for men, women getting shorter sentences for the same crimes...

There is no doubt society is in many occasions uneven and unfair and that there still is a way to go. But don't pretend men have it all


amscraylane t1_j0etsy7 wrote

It would only be equal if your hormones shifted, you had diarrhea or constipation, headaches, bloating, and cramps … and then every so often a good gush of blood appears in your underwear.

Your compensation is never having to be planning a trip and have to consult your mental calendar to see if you’ll be shedding your uterine lining.

Your compensation is never having to worry about having a blow out in your new white Z Cavaricci jeans.


KnotiaPickles t1_j0e8ihb wrote

Nope. Y chromosome people don’t have any comparable condition inherent to their lives.


Soup_and_death_grips t1_j0ezibt wrote

No, because the leave exists to balance out the suffering that the XX people have to go through monthly. Not to mention the cost of period products.


PotatoBeautiful t1_j0f9fji wrote

You sound like you’re coming at this with a genuine curiosity, which I appreciate, so I hope you can hear me on this answer.

Yeah it might seem unfair at first glance, but XX people to this day get paid less for same jobs as their peers, are more likely to be scrutinized when hired (‘so do you have children/are you planning to have children?’), and are also often assumed that they will be the caretakers for kids if they do have them, moreso than the XY parent. They’ve also likely gone through their whole life since teenage years having to suck it up and carry out tasks while in a lot of physical pain. School, work, social obligation, etc… all with pain or even mental symptoms that have no resolution and are maybe survivable with heavy painkillers. XX people still carry the expectation to show up to all this with a smile too, because let’s face it, there’s still a societal hangover in terms of how different genders are meant to behave, dress and act. I have a uterus that sometimes (not every time, even!) has me doubled over in pain or unable to stand up, and there are people who would genuinely expect others like me to show up to a job wearing high heels and makeup and uncomfortable clothes to maintain the veneer of professionalism when simply being upright feels like being punched in the stomach. I think there are a lot of people like me. Sure, sick leave exists, but sometimes I’m not quite ‘sick’ so much as I simply need a day to ride out the pain without fearing that if I catch a cold later in my year I’ll have to compromise income on what could (and should) be a lengthier stay at home.

XY people, without even meaning to, have been born into decades of precedent of having access to higher, more consistent pay. Capitalism is bullshit and not every XY person is immediately going to just get more money, for many reasons, of course. However, they have the chance of receiving the benefit of the doubt from (often male) employers who have distinctly built a career off that precedent. I don’t want to frame this as anyone’s fault, because most of us didn’t choose this shit, but it’d be irresponsible to act as though it doesn’t exist.

So idk, a day or two here and there for people who feel like if they stand up their organs might splash out doesn’t seem like too much. They’ll be back tomorrow.


Kelmon80 t1_j0fn3ek wrote

> but XX people to this day get paid less for same jobs as their peers

Except they're not. The wage gap as it is commonly understood ("women in the same position make 76 cent to a man's dollar") is a complete falsehod.

Men and women with the same qualifications in the same job get paid pretty much (*) exactly the same - the wage gap compares the average salaries of ALL men with that of ALL women. And, guess what - there's more stay-at-home women than stay-at-home men, and there's more men working in more lucrative (and, on average, more demanding and/or dangerous) fields and positions than women.

And while that last part is still in need of fixing (More female CEOs AND more female garbage collectors/construction workers/tradespeople/soldiers) - any individual woman does not get paid less than her male counterpart.

(* The actual difference is between 1 and 2% in my country (government figures), half of which is attributed to men just being more successful in salary negotiations, the other half to actual plain old discrimination)


PotatoBeautiful t1_j0fqsrl wrote

The other thing I need to add though, regardless of whether or not to debate this point, is that people who menstruate are still expected to perform through what can be debilitating pain on a month to month basis, and to do it without mention or fuss. It’s not something that can be opted in or out of, and the precedent is to NEVER mention it, which I can’t help but suspect is yet another leftover from a not-too-distant time where women were barred from jobs deemed to be ‘for men.’ It isn’t that XX people can’t perform these jobs or should be considered incapable, it is more that it would be humane and equitable to make accommodation for a common issue that will likely resolve within 24-48 hours for the worker every few weeks or even months.


PotatoBeautiful t1_j0g1rse wrote

I see you've edited this comment rather than responding, so I don't mind responding again. :)

I note you put that this percentage discrepancy is in your country. That's wonderful, but unfortunately, nowhere near universal. It also does not account for your other adjustment, that many XX people are not able to as easily ascend through rankings in clerical settings to become CEOs, or that many people are effectively shunned from trade work due to sexism within those trades. Should an XX person decide that they want to improve their chances by changing country, or to restart in these trades, they still face the massive financial, emotional and situation hurdles that any human does when going through a significant move.

The thing is, many types of work that XX people go into ARE dangerous, they are simply not dangerous in a way that people speak of in polite company. It can be extremely dangerous to be in trades that will not rock the boat for someone who has faced physical or verbal harassment, and it can be difficult to quit a job if it is ensuring financial survival. I have found it is much more common to hear from women/XX people that they have faced sexual discrimination or assault in their workplaces, but were unable to quit. It is a type of danger, and that is aside from the demands of the actual job. And, if that person does decide to quit, they very well may end up losing money in the process of finding a workplace that is not constantly threatening. My source here is myself.

edit: In any case, this is somewhat aside from the original post, but it is meant to support my point that allowing one or two days for common bodily functions under these conditions is equity rather than an unfair exception based on biological traits. I sincerely doubt anyone is going to find themselves with a massive hike in income solely because they are given the space to occasionally take a day to deal with intense physical symptoms that are both normal but deeply incompatible with the capitalist structures we all suffer under.


PotatoBeautiful t1_j0fpynq wrote

Let me Google that for you:

And your analogy of more stay-at-home women is support to my statement that by and large there is still a societal expectation that the XX partner will be the primary caregiver to any children they may have with their XY partner. It’s rooted in no reason and archaic, not to mention pretty cruel to both parents.

The reason XY folks are often in those lucrative positions, might I add, is exactly what I was saying regarding hiring bias. Plenty of people across the gender spectrum get educated or are eligible for a variety of jobs, but this still persists.


furiousfran t1_j0gktks wrote

Yeah I should get maternity leave too even though I never intend to have children since I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me


Louloubelle0312 t1_j0gno3g wrote

You do realize it's men that have the Y chromosome, right? So, men should get even more than they already get?


nico87ca t1_j0gr88c wrote

You understand that giving a day or 2 per month like clockwork is literally 2-4 weeks off per year.

Sorry but if you're off 4-8% more than men, you shouldn't get 1-1 compensation OR men should get some sort of time off.

Or else it's simply not fair.


Louloubelle0312 t1_j0gs1oq wrote

Oh, boo hoo. Life has NEVER been fair for women. Men have ALWAYS had every advantage in the world, and I assure you that if men had periods, they'd miss a week solid. Work can be made up. As someone who worked through chemotherapy, accommodations were made for me so that I could do the work that I was hired to do. And that could be done here. If you have a fever, do you go to work? Men get paid more to start with. Was that ever fair? They don't have to work as hard doing the same work as women simply to keep their jobs.


nico87ca t1_j0gtglh wrote

This is like a gold mine of biases.

I don't know where to start...

I simply believe in equality of genders. If you want to think women deserve more than men, it's your view, but I would fight this to my dying day.

Women oppression was a bad thing. Just like slavery also was. To exploit someone because of its sex or race is wrong. I live by this standard and will die by it.

No matter the reason, this policy gives a specific subgroup of human a benefit not everyone can have.

It's fundamentally unfair.


Louloubelle0312 t1_j0hy4at wrote

That you said oppression "was" a bad thing tells me a lot here. We are still oppressed, and I don't see it stopping. If anything with all these asshat republicans and their religious biases, it's getting worse. You want equality of genders? Then start by treating us as people. Don't talk over us. Don't talk down to us. Don't act like we need you to protect us.

When half the population suffers from what is tantamount to an illness, then yes, they deserve a break for that. You don't get it, because it's never happened to you. If you see that as a bias, then so be it. And yes, right now, we do deserve more. Maybe it will make up for the thousands of years of men acting like women are possessions, or servants.


nico87ca t1_j0i61nn wrote

"maybe it will make up for the thousands of years of men acting like women are servants"

So you're telling me that to make it fair, women should oppress men "to make it up". On top of this you're asking men to be cool with that.


That's totally reasonable!


Mrischief t1_j0h808e wrote

Are you for real ?

Men as in who ? Historically everyone in humanity was a serf, slave or lived close to their families. Oh you mean men as in rich men ? Well see the problem there is that MOST MEN are not rich, and yes you will the bring up the argument of childbirth and the risk for women, which is subtantial for sure during those times.

Men / XY have during most of history been the partner that has assumed risk comparatively to set food, do harder labour, die younger (barring sickness / complication from childbirth).

So how exactly are you arguing that it is MEN that has had it better ? Kings, nobels, New money has risen to the top and guess what, they want to maximize profits.

You dont get to cheery pick statistics for one thing, you do so comparatively, or not at all.


Louloubelle0312 t1_j0hwo6b wrote

I'm actually laughing. That you think women have EVER had it better than any class of men is not just naive, it's lunacy. Not cherry picking any statistics, but apparently you are if you don't understand that men have ALWAYS had it better. And wow, that you think because men had it bad a thousand years ago, that that somehow made their lives just as bad as women's, then you need to do a little more research. Women could be beaten and or killed if their husbands wanted, with no repercussions. So, yeah, having to work in a field doing back breaking work, so much worse /s. Comparing what men had to go through to Kings and nobels is so beyond ridiculous since those were the 1% of their time.


Mrischief t1_j0i2ug4 wrote

Which fields of study do women go into ?

Do they pay as much or equal as men (in that profession) ?

So there is a subset of women that go into being programmers, lawyers, doctors and politicians, so why should the achivements not be on Merit insteas of a gender ?

Who is more likely to go to college or university ? What subjects do they do ?

Who gets drafted in wars, by force ? Is that equal ?

What about courts or divorce proceedings ?

Now, back to the topic at hand. Spain has about 22 days give or take sick days, why do we have to spell out a benefit for painful menstruation precisely ?

When men get sick, we tend to be sicker than women does that mean we should get extra sick days because of it ?

«Men are more susceptible to them, symptoms are worse, they last longer, and men are more likely to be hospitalized and die from the flu." Dr. Kyle sue clinical assistant professor in family medicine

So what exactly do you want ? Cause equality across the gender gap is not happening, we have our own struggles to deal with. And we could expand that to different continents have different issues.


Quickshot4721 t1_j0diheg wrote

100% as they are getting paid the same for more work just because they allowed menstrual leave for something that is normal. Downvote me I don’t care it’s my opinion