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Sariel007 OP t1_j13rhu0 wrote

>Researchers hope a "world first" algorithm that predicts serious brain bleeds before they happen could save lives across Australia.

>Royal Perth Hospital head of data science, Shiv Meka, said more than 40,000 hours of patient data had been collected from 200 patients from Royal Perth Hospital, Alfred Hospital, and Royal Melbourne Hospital to develop the algorithm.

>After working on 20 different data models, Mr Meka and his team created one that could predict if a brain bleed was imminent — giving medical staff up to 20 minutes before the bleed to intervene.


smallmight2018 t1_j14n8q4 wrote

i would be funny if the computer has sass on any prediction


BluudLust t1_j14rj5e wrote

That's absolutely amazing. My grandfather had a couple scares which luckily didn't happen, but this would just be peace of mind.


okijhnub t1_j14s2br wrote

I predict you will have brain bleeding soon

Huh? I feel fine and I haven't bumped my head or anything



BatteryAcid67 t1_j14vfjs wrote

I like that we're not calling them AI in this article.


Tankeverket t1_j14yok5 wrote

Imagine when this becomes common practice,

  • you're sitting at home and suddenly your phone sends you a notification,

  • it's a text message from your local hospital,

  • you check the text message and it says "This is an automated message from the Hospital's Supercomputer: According to our predictions you are going to suffer from a brain bleed on January 23rd between 3:00pm and 5:00pm."

  • It is currently January 23rd 2:54pm


pummers88 t1_j14yyil wrote

A supercomputer has learnt to manifest death! Ftfy


RebbyRose t1_j150rpp wrote

The algorithm will rule us all lol! and maybe even do it better than we've managed lol


g13n4 t1_j152t6c wrote

Well you can't really predict something if it already happened


Hadleys158 t1_j1536sb wrote

This and the use of AI to detect and predict issues with people are going to save 100s if not 1000s of lives in the future.


handfight t1_j153owe wrote

Sound suspicious, does the supercomputer also have access to a mallet?


MarcoYTVA t1_j153vb7 wrote

Ah yes, it "predicts" them


scratch_post t1_j154kv5 wrote

"Please respond with 'HELP!' to receive ambulance services."


"Unknown entry"


"Unknown entry"


"Unknown entry"

Me: to myself Why isn't this pattern matched dies


tanis_ivy t1_j15bnso wrote

Imagine the ambulance just shows up at your house unannounced. You open the door and the guy is standing there counting down. He hits one and you drop to the floor.

"Ah, right on time"

"Kevin. You're supposed to hold onto them before they fall. Look, now there's blood everywhere. I'm not cleaning that up."


LittleDragon450 t1_j15fqws wrote

This comment section is making me laugh 😂 thanks y’all for brightening my day with dark humor


lostkarma4anonymity t1_j15gjbq wrote

Computer: Are you currently taking Xarelto or Pradaxa? Yes? Chance of Brain Bleed High.


simonbleu t1_j15jlzh wrote

Supercomputer with a hammer in hand: "I make the reality now..."


Migraine- t1_j15ktku wrote

I hate these posts. What is the purpose of it? You are just naming a couple of random anticoagulants you've heard of to make it sound like you know more than you actually do.

It's also incredibly weird how it's standard in America to call virtually all medications by brand names.


guy-chapman t1_j15l27p wrote

With enough processing power, the right math and a large enough dataset prediction of almost anything is possible.


AsaCoco_Alumni t1_j15l8kz wrote

It's got way way more potential...

Use AI combined with Japan-style Annual Medicals, with the AI in the background creating mega data sets, continuely throwing things at the wall to find corrolation, and then presenting the compelling matches between negative incident (death, injury event) patterns and subtle shifts and/or combinations in patients bio history, and it'll prevent tens, hundreds of thousands of death events and tens of millions of non-fatal but disabling events.


RivetheadGirl t1_j15ln6r wrote

The problem with using icp to predict things is that it's an invasive procedure. So, the patients who have them will have already had a bleed/ traumatic injury etc and we already use it to monitor for the need for more invasive procedures such as a craniotomy. And, if they have a cranie and still have an evd in place it's not going to be completely accurate.

So, if you're already monitoring the patient in the ICU its helpful, but this isn't going to help the average patient pre hospitalization.


waxess t1_j15o6td wrote

I work in intensive care and can only imagine the amount of money and time we're going to piss up the wall transporting patients for unnecessary scans just in case the algorithm is correct.

Also, most importantly, if the machine predicts a bleed is imminent, and we scan the patient, and they haven't bled, then they aren't going to go to theatre for any intervention anyway.

Modern medicine is still reactive, even if we think someone is about to bleed, I can almost guarantee that nothing will be done, except to wait and monitor the patient, and if they do deteriorate, then take them to scan and call the surgeons.

...which is exactly what we do now anyway.


Pthn t1_j15ojna wrote

Why does that preview image for the article look like a Sysadmin putting a tray of hot pockets into the server rack 😳

My colleagues would totally do that


keldration t1_j15psx3 wrote

Natasha Richardson would like a word.


lostkarma4anonymity t1_j15rh0t wrote

I worked at a law firm that had over 15,000 brain bleed clients that were prescribed those specific medications. When their spouses would go to the ER the doctors would tell them that due to the medications chances of survival were almost 0%.

The brain bleeds were nothing compared to the gastrointestinal bleeds where people would bleed to death THROUGH THEIR BUTTS often in their sleep. Spouses would wake up to a blood soaked mattress and a dead partner.


Migraine- t1_j15rzho wrote

And? No different to if they were on warfarin or any of the other DOACs.

It's not some "gotcha" that these medications cause some patients to have serious bleeds, which may kill them. They are given to people who have a very high risk of forming life threatening or disabling clots. These medications reduce that risk, but in order to do that they increase your risk of bleeding. For patients offered these drugs, the risk-benefit ratio is felt to be in favour of treatment i.e. their risk of serious clots is so high that the risk of bleeding is the lesser evil. Patients are counselled on the risks and have every right to choose not to go onto these drugs if they don't want to.

Some individual patients will suffer harm. Overall, more people will benefit.


lostkarma4anonymity t1_j15u7ar wrote

Not sure why youre so argumentative. No Pradaxa and Xarelto are NOT the same as Warfarin and other anticoagulants. That’s why I specifically said “Pradaxa and Xarelto” as opposed to other medication. P and X do NOT respond to Vitamin K, a common medication prescribed to stop bleeds, that’s what P and X have an extremely high fatality rate. Further P and X cause spontaneous bleeds whereas Warfarin bleeds are usually caused by trauma, impact, or cuts/scratches.

Google P and X lawsuits and you’ll find thousands of wrongful death lawsuits (which the companies are paying out) google Warfarin lawsuits and you won’t find shit because it’s doesn’t cause death the same way P and X do.

Are you one of those doctors that still prescribe P and X despite knowing how dangerous and lethal they are? Or you just a Reddit user with no specialized knowledge on the topic and want to one up a stranger that actually knows what they are talking about.

How about this: I’ll keep warning people about the inherent, inevitable, and proven danger of P and X and you keep saying “and so?” Does that work for you?


Migraine- t1_j15vvkf wrote

Case study in someone having zero understanding of what they are talking about and having used that non-existent understanding to form a dangerously misinformed viewpoint they are going to shout from the rooftops.

You are a dangerous idiot.


sagr0tan t1_j15w87g wrote

Couldn't be Germany. Here "physicians" try to do that while feeling like half-gods. The health system may be free, but it's shitty, unless you're half dead already or you're old and sick and you're a money cow to be milked. And even then...nope. Worked in health administration here for years (till I couldn't do it anymore, as a human being). I drive me and my family to the Netherlands for checkup.


Ta-bar-nack t1_j15wihf wrote

I can do that too if you give me a hammer.


lostkarma4anonymity t1_j15wpdv wrote

Wow just looked at your history. So you ARE one of the doctors that still prescribes this heinous product. Scary stuff. It would be great if doctors paid attention to this stuff instead of blindly listening to the pharma companies… but blindly listening to pharma companies is how you get to avoid medmal liability so I guess so long as you are protected it doesn’t matter how many patients die.

Your arrogance will be the cause of patients dying. The scientific proof is out there and available to the public.

Let me guess, you also told patients OxyContin was COMPLETELY non habit forming.


Cersordie t1_j1619uk wrote

High blood pressure increases pressure in brain. Avm or arteriovenous malformations are sites where arteries join veins abnormally and are “weak points”. Icp is Intracranial pressure which can be caused by things like tumors but increased Icp means Bp needs to increase to perfuse the brain still.


Positive-Living t1_j163e2g wrote

Think about the benefit just of every doctor's knowledge being combined.

On one hand, a doctor with 20 years experience, on a twelve hour shift, with X number of patients and whose marriage is failing.

On the other, a computer, with millions of years of collective experience and expertise in everything from an infected zit to ebola to that psychological disorder only three doctors have ever heard of.


TheRedChair21 t1_j1650p3 wrote

"Hello Samantha. I am a super computer that predicts brain bleeds. You will suffer from a massive brain bleed in 3 seconds."

"What? Why?"

(Pushes Samantha down the stairs)


Dany9119 t1_j166h63 wrote

Where is the original paper about it? Or is it just a article? This article says nothing, its basically just claims.


Apprehensive_Bees t1_j16c04k wrote

This would be truly amazing. Sadly though it won’t happen in Japan at least. A healthcare system so isolated from itself but has an unspoken rule of having hardware barely capable of running their copy of windows 95 and their record software which is so basic yet so convoluted doctors struggle to navigate it.

Annual medicals are great here mind and save lives, but infrastructure is a let down


cal_sta t1_j16f9al wrote

Title is a bit misleading, the algorithm "predicts traumatic intracranial hypertension", i.e predicts if the pressure in the skull is going to increase to dangerous levels, which is caused by bleeding/swelling. We know your brains bleeding we just wanna know if it's gonna kill you.


waxess t1_j16g9r0 wrote

Yes but we track intracranial pressures already, if its within normal limits, we continue to monitor, if it increases, we manage it with medical treatment and consider repeat scanning to assess if there is a bleed.

If the algorithm predicts a bleed, but ICP remains normal, we won't rescan a patient.

If it predicts a bleed and ICP increases, we will rescan the patient, but that's essentially what we would do anyway. This seems like a costly and unhelpful intervention, as I can't see how it would change our current practice. Obviously I stand to be corrected, but this seems a somewhat redundant discovery at first sight.


waxess t1_j16gu1i wrote

We already monitor intracranial pressure and we monitor it continuously, 24 hrs a day, as long as the patient stays in ICU. At best, this would give us a warning that the patient may bleed, and ICPs may rise, which may encourage us to watch it more closely, but good medical practice would mean watching the ICP all day, every day, continuously, without any breaks anyway.

Regarding your (presumably rhetorical) opening question, the harsh reality of modern healthcare is that a life does have a dollar value. In a system of finite resources, all interventions have to be weighed against their cost-benefit. If this algorithm can be shown to save one out of every ten thousand patients from a bleed that would otherwise be missed, but it costs $10 million to license, it would be highly unlikely to be picked up by any hospital that has to consider where else its funding may be better spent.


Uplink03 t1_j16i4q5 wrote

Some people waste electricity on Bitcoin and NFTs. The real heroes do this.


Hacky03 t1_j16knk3 wrote

This problem NP or P anyone?


OrkHaugr23 t1_j16nbjq wrote

Maybe the computer is causing the brain bleeds???


awesometroy t1_j16p0ac wrote

I wonder how much they are going to charge for that!


Mercerskye t1_j16ugb8 wrote

This is all fine and dandy, but they can't figure out why the computer needs to keep sending in the stabby micro bots...


throwaway4161412 t1_j16vdqq wrote

Plot twist: it's causing them to close the loop and fulfill the prophecy


KoinePineapple t1_j16wltf wrote

As someone who is irrationally scared of brainbleeds, this is great news!


Pupgradek9 t1_j17ejag wrote

In the US "an ambulance is on the way and we've calculated the trip to your location to cost $800. Text Stop to cancel your ambulance"

Plus then you'd be slapped with the ambulance cancelation fee. 799 bucks.


KerryonsCrayons t1_j17jd6a wrote

Hope you realize that you sound like an idiot to any medical professional. “Monitored closely and have their dosage adjusted….” Newsflash, there’s thousands of medication that need dose adjustments in kidney failure, and warfarin is infinitely more difficult to adjust…in any patient, not just kidney failure. That’s one of the reasons warfarin had higher risks of bleeding, likely too many people were supratherapeutic. Also you mentioned that you can’t use vitamin k; you wouldn’t use just vitamin k if it’s a life threatening bleed since it takes hours to work. You’d use the same reversal agent most use for DOAC’s, which is PCC’s.

I’m not sure if you’ve started this job you’re talking about or not, but you definitely need to do more reading on the subject if you are going to be talking like such an expert.


Medicp3009 t1_j17ntuf wrote

Ambulances are way more expensive than that. In NJ if a BLS ambulance takes you it’s around 1500. If the paramedics show up and apply 4 stickers read your ekg and get your VS it’s 10k. Here is the kicker. The paramedics can triage the patient back to the basic emts because they weren’t needed and there was no life threat.

Volunteers are the worst culprit of having the paramedics come “check them out” basically because they are inept.


menjav t1_j17p098 wrote

Unfortunately we cannot send paramedics right now because we had to let go most of them in the 2023 depression. If you’re close to a surgeon, people get in touch with them. Otherwise, call your closest family to say good bye. Have a nice day.


ShotgunRaider t1_j17pcgl wrote

No way. Is the story of Soma becoming a reality gif


trevbook t1_j17ssfh wrote

I was thinking about that too while reading it! Neat framing on their part. As someone who studies the field, I'm pretty torn on usage of "AI" myself - I think I like ML more, but as the capabilities of these models advance, it's hard not looking at their functions as some form of "intelligence".


doktorbulb t1_j17z0us wrote

Headline translated: Super computer learns power of Head Explody


albanianator t1_j186w6b wrote

Not having a period at the end of that title made me read it as if the sentence was cut off. 😅


onlysmokereg t1_j18ds34 wrote

Right before it punches them in the nose with its giant robot super arm


chakabesh t1_j18gxj9 wrote

In the future. You: I'd like to have a life insurance. Agent: That would be $ 2,600 per month. You: ??? Agent: Our supercomputer predicts you are due to die in 3 1/2 year. You:??? Agent: For privacy reasons we cannot give you the detailed information. You: F@@@K!


slampdi t1_j18jbkt wrote

For women: "we predict you will be suffering from hysteria on June 13th. Please do not contact your doctor with your lady-crazies. We must leave the ER open for men with brain bleeds."


Migraine- t1_j18k5ce wrote

What's scary is the fact idiots like you can make dangerous - and as has been proven elsewhere in this comment chain, factually wrong - claims about medications without consequences.

Frankly I'm tempted to look into whether I can report you to your professional board because I don't think they would look kindly on a lawyer giving out medical advice online.


lostkarma4anonymity t1_j197cdb wrote

" CONCLUSION - DOACs overall, apixaban, and dabigatran, but not rivaroxaban were associated with less total bleeding and death than warfarin in patients with heart failure and atrial fibrillation at all levels of renal function. Renal function decline resulted in increased bleeding in patients with DOACs. DOAC dose adjustment was often indicated, associated with increased bleeding when not adjusted, emphasizing the need for closer monitoring in these patients."


lostkarma4anonymity t1_j197vmz wrote

Actually, in the US, doctors rarely face legal consequences from prescription medication as its found the prescription manufacturer is usually at fault. For example, Pradaxa manufacturers knowingly hid data from doctors when saying it was a safe medication. So doctors can't be found liable when its the manufacturer thats lying to the doctors in the first place.


lostkarma4anonymity t1_j198z4z wrote

You're over hear calling me names. When I think we can both agree that we are trying to help people. When was the last time you warned a patient of the risk that they would bleed to death out of their asshole, a legitimate risk according to you. These conversations are good to have and increase knowledge to the patient. Why gloss over the real danger? Nobody is suing the doctors over this, you remain protected and shielded from liability.

So ugly and hateful. As though the thousands of people that died don't matter because "they are free to turn down blood thinners" if they want.

You have all this evidence in front of you showing that it DOES cause a lot of people pain and tragedy, yet you resort to name calling and hateful rhetoric.

The fact that some doctors would rather be hateful than accountable is exactly the reason I love my job. AGAIN I don't even sue the doctors, its the MANUFACTURERS a PRODUCTS LIABILITY CASE. But go ahead and call me the idiot.


Tankeverket t1_j19o3z4 wrote

Maybe in the future we'll have some sort of health monitoring tht you can get, if I had to get some sort of device that monitors my health data, but it makes sure to let me know if I need to seek medical attention, then sign me up.


ilikerackmounts t1_j1c34d5 wrote

> The Setonix supercomputer has the power of tens of thousands of laptops working in unison.

What? Those don't look like laptops in that rack.