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MisterStinkyBones t1_j2km3hz wrote

Hey good for them! Everyone deserves to be loved.

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DragonGarlicBreath t1_j2koz0z wrote

I've known a decent number off people who have left orders for similar reasons. You'd think the highers-up would be more understanding; just like you can be called to an order, you can be called away. Some of them seem to be, but most seem apparently hostile. (It's fair to demand some reflection and time to make the choice, but accept the choice made.)

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Ma3vis t1_j2l6qpl wrote

I think it's cause Nuns are often depicted as "brides of Christ" married to either Jesus or the church (which I think is a popularized myth). Apparently it’s a metaphor meant to better understand their commitments to Chasity, which works for some people, but it’s not something that is literal or universally embraced. So to give that up is like you're divorcing Christ himself probably to some folks out there.

I understand people taking a vow of celibacy but I also feel like to devote yourself entirely to it is in rejection of the biblical message of Adam and Eve, God's message to be fruitful and multiply, and so on. That said, even for asexual people of faith there's always the option to adopt and be stewards that way, so I see no outright harm in such. Just that certain institutions are unfortunately misleading their own clergy.

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arkofjoy t1_j2mncjc wrote

Don't forget that the whole chastity came in to prevent senior priests from claiming church lands for children.

The whole "teachings of Jesus being used to amass power and wealth" has some problems that they certainly didn't learn from the Carpenters son.

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Thedarknight1611 t1_j2nfdts wrote

It's also notable that only the catholic church really has that rule most other denominations your free to get married because they realize how backwards the rule is

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arkofjoy t1_j2nn05u wrote

True, but most of those came after the church had all those lands.

Didn't Henry the 8 take a bunch of the Catholic churches lands in England and make it his own?

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Thedarknight1611 t1_j2noq6m wrote

I believe so because he started the Anglican church and voided all catholic church lands. Giving them to the Anglican church instead

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arkofjoy t1_j2nr0mw wrote

Ah, OK, then I mis- remembered. I thought he took all the Catholic church lands for the crown and did not give them to the Anglican Church.

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billypilgrim87 t1_j2r4hft wrote

The Anglican Church was an instrument of the crown, so it's sort of the same thing really.

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arkofjoy t1_j2rumtr wrote

That is true, but I thought part of the purpose of the break with the Catholic church was to remove the power of the church over the government. So if they were still large landholders, they would still have a lot of power.

But it seems that I remember my of my English history wrongly.

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MrHazard1 t1_j2lwupp wrote

Almost like the whole concept is flawed and full of contradictions. And people use whatever part they need to fit the point, they're trying to make

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Douchebazooka t1_j2mt93m wrote

Oh, wow, someone hostile to religion on the Internet! What a rarely encountered treat!

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MrHazard1 t1_j2mzofb wrote

>Oh, wow, someone hostile to religion on the Internet! reddit

Fify. I think these discussions wouldn't be as onesided if this was facebook.

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lrpfftt t1_j2n6u3n wrote

Hostile or realistic?

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Douchebazooka t1_j2n6zb5 wrote

You do realize this kind of take isn't clever or new, right? It just sounds like a teenager who just told their parents they're an atheist and thinks anyone else cares.

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lrpfftt t1_j2n79v4 wrote

Sounds more to me like someone who never fell for religious nonsense in the first place.

It's good that this couple found one another and had a real life instead of the "cult" they belonged to before.

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notnotaginger t1_j2ne78l wrote

They asked a question you dodged: hostile or realistic?

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Douchebazooka t1_j2nea1w wrote

I didn't dodge it; it's a false dichotomy. It's not a dodge to refuse to engage with fallacious arguments.

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notnotaginger t1_j2nkev3 wrote

Can you explain how it is hostile, then?

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Douchebazooka t1_j2nkrgm wrote

Because the definitions of hostile include "antagonistic," "not friendly," and "showing a desire to thwart." It's literally right there for everyone to read, unless you're cherry-picking your definition of hostile to only include outright attacks rather than disposition.

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notnotaginger t1_j2nmke1 wrote

And how did their comment fit that, is the question? Or is it just your interpretation?

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Douchebazooka t1_j2nmvqs wrote

>Almost like the whole concept is flawed and full of contradictions. And people use whatever part they need to fit the point, they're trying to make

Perhaps you can tell me how the above is friendly to someone's religious beliefs instead, because if you can't find the hostility in that comment, I honestly have no idea how we're going to find reasonable common ground here

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notnotaginger t1_j2nnbr9 wrote

Is pointing out flaws hostile? Yikes. If your boss points out an error in your work, is that hostile? Or is it important to analyze our own flaws?

Your definition is super snowflakey.

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Douchebazooka t1_j2nnjfm wrote

You're either being intentionally dense or playing coy. I'm not sure which. Claiming something is a flaw while arguing a straw man is not genuinely pointing out flaws. It's the underlying supposition and approach that is hostile.

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notnotaginger t1_j2no6am wrote

Where’s the flaw? Do you have an assertion that there is no contradictions? Because I went to Bible school and in my education even the professors pointed out contradictions and how they dealt with them

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Douchebazooka t1_j2nobdb wrote

Ah, "Bible school." Have a nice day. You're not engaged in an honest discussion, and I'm not interested in wasting my time. :)

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notnotaginger t1_j2nox26 wrote

Sounds like your hostile towards Bible school, by your own definition. Where I am it’s a four year university, and I came out with a BA.

For someone who wants others to follow logical rules of discourse, you’re dismissing mine based on your own prejudices.

If you truly care about logical discourse, you can ALWAYS explain your argument.

And obfuscating when I ask about contradictions says a lot.

You have much higher standards for other then yourself.

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[deleted] t1_j2odp6x wrote

Oh look, a religious hypocrite. What a rare find!

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Douchebazooka t1_j2omgk7 wrote

Oh look, accusations of hypocrisy from a nu-atheist with literally no supporting evidence! How novel and not at all a rhetorical device at this point!

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lirannl t1_j2nnd59 wrote

From an outsider's perspective (atheist), it seems that vows are swears (and by that I mean "I swear to uphold xyz", not "fuck"), so you would never ever be allowed to break them, theologically speaking? Is that not the point of a vow (if not, what is the point of a vow?)

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MisterStinkyBones t1_j2kr9zq wrote

To most of them it's God or nothing. They don't understand love it seems.

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DragonGarlicBreath t1_j2krvh3 wrote

Which is odd, since that's what they'll tell you what the faith is all about.

But it's consistent with how a bunch of celibate men are dictating sexual morality...

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believethescience t1_j2ne36s wrote

Naw, it's because the organization will be losing the funds created by the individual, and has (in many cases) invested in the person (such as sending to higher Ed). Also means fewer people in a shrinking organization. Add that to the religious complex that women aren't supposed to want romantic or intimate partners and they often are not kind to those who wish to leave.

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Joseluki t1_j2n3p5k wrote

Yeah most cults are angry when their slaves run away.

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Zehaie t1_j2ly9u0 wrote

Not saying this to sound edgy but that's not true, infact nobody deserves love except children.

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cottoncandyburrito t1_j2m07ec wrote

Please explain

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swarmy1 t1_j2myoxl wrote

I think the issue is "deserve" implies a sense of entitlement. Similar to the entitlement that some men feel about relationships with women.

If someone is an asshole to everyone around them, then no one is obligated to love them.

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Victor-Magnus t1_j2m1tdo wrote

I believe what he’s getting at is that if you’re obligated to love, that’s not real love, and that while adults can survive and be relatively healthy functioning humans without love, children when deprived of a loving environment develop serious sociological and psychological issues.

Love is not something you earn, you can’t make someone love you because you do more chores or say nice things. If you just earn love like a job by hard work or by anything else, then theoretically if you just worked harder, were just a little more attractive, did the dishes a little more, you could make anyone love you. Children, and more so babies, are unable to earn anything. Love isn’t something that you can earn like money, and the fact that you can’t expect it from someone or deserve it because of how many medals you’ve won for being the best at football makes it more valuable because someone else must give it willingly.

Mind you, acts of kindness can be vehicles of demonstrating love, kindness isn’t love itself. You can treat someone kindly and not be doing so out of love in the same way customer service can be polite and helpful but not really give a care about you.

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Zehaie t1_j2m6b7l wrote

Human Adults don't deserve love, it's very much ideal and possibly may even give health benefits when feeling loved, love is given to you regardless of consent, what I'm basically getting at is love is earned but still isn't deserved even if fought for, died for, etc .Adults cannot die from lack of love or too much love but children may actually be highly influenced by the love they feel and will directly effect their growth mentally, yes in a perfect world every one deserves love, I agree with you.

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Notbob1234 t1_j2n7glt wrote

Adults can die and be mentally scarred for lack of love. The countless stories of mental decline after losing a spouse late in life, suicide, depression, and of course degradation of lonely men into being incels. Love is an important factor no matter what age you are.

Everyone deserves some amount of love. Perhaps not romantic love, but compassion, empathy, friendship, understanding, these are all forms of love that can be given.

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compaqdeskpro t1_j2n1vz1 wrote

Kanye West made the case that everyone deserved love, and he was swifty shot down.

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Vprbite t1_j2lwk2j wrote

My mother left the convent to marry my father. He knew her in high school but she always said she would become a nun. He said he loved her and would wait for her to change her mind. So, he did. And she did. They stayed in touch while he was at West Point and she was in the convent. Finally, on her very last day before she became a full fledged nun, she left and married my dad. Still married some 54 years later

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vrenak t1_j2moemk wrote

And then they crossed into Switzerland on foot...

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Vprbite t1_j2mp9zi wrote

Haha, sounds like it, doesn't it? It's actually my mother's favorite movie and she met Julie Andrews once which meant the world to her

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vrenak t1_j2msmsh wrote

Nice, lovely that she got to meet her.:)

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Vprbite t1_j2q21l2 wrote

Yeah, she was so happy. She used to talk about it all the time. Unfortunately she has been ravaged by dementia these last few years and had bad aphasia. But it was definitely special for her to meet her hero

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s-mores t1_j2n32cp wrote

Funnily enough, your mom is "the one that got away" for god.

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Vprbite t1_j2of2eh wrote

Haha! Ya. God has a sense of humor though. She wanted 3 girls. She got 3 boys and we were all more trouble than the last

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Singularitysong t1_j2l4oq4 wrote

They seem like a lovely couple. This made me smile and im happy for them.

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Calligraphee t1_j2m8n1k wrote

My best friend's parents were in the seminary/convent when they met at a silent retreat. After a few weeks of writing letters to one another, they both left their vocations.

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ashoka_akira t1_j2nbaf8 wrote

Actually sounds like it would be a great plot for a romance novel

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Calligraphee t1_j2nur1b wrote

We’re writing a musical about their family history lol, there’s a whole song about it

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beyondqueens t1_j2kozdp wrote

Gives me hope for my terrible love life… if Lisa can pull in a habit, then surely anything is possible.

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firthy t1_j2ml77w wrote

A lot of people find a habit quite alluring

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pragmaticutopian t1_j2myt0d wrote

Until 1200s, Catholic clergy was allowed to marry. This changed after the Augustinian philosophy that saw Sex as an inevitable sin.

Eastern Churches, however, preserved their tradition and still allows priests and nuns to get married, either each other or to lay people.

I think celibacy must be a choice for people who wish to take that as a vow, not a criteria in becoming a priest/nun and serving God

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StrayMoggie t1_j2n1gyf wrote

The Catholic Church would probably do better these days to allow marriage for their clergy. Hopefully Pope Francis can convince the rest of the chuch to allow marriage.

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MoveAhead-HopAlong t1_j2n6xc5 wrote

One downside to allowing priests to marry would be the financial burden. It would double (at least) their overhead and require parishes to put up the money for their wife and kids. It’s not a simple switch you can flip, and many (maybe most) parishes would not be able to afford married priests.

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LucianHodoboc t1_j2nhk50 wrote

>Eastern Churches, however, preserved their tradition and still allows priests and nuns to get married, either each other or to lay people.

That is incorrect. For priests, they are allowed to marry before ordination, but not after. Those who opt for married life must marry before becoming priests, deacons (with a few exceptions), and, in some strict traditions, subdeacons. As far as monastic life is concerned, both men and women who had previously been married and are widowers/widows are allowed to become monks and nuns, but they have to remain unmarried.

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pragmaticutopian t1_j2nn8yf wrote

Syriac Jacobite Church, Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church in India both allows their priests to get married even after ordination. Both follow Eastern Liturgy and has roots in the East. However, there is a catch; married ones are often not allowed to becomes Bishops or head the Church. Often their service is limited to Parish ministry and managing other day to day activities.

wedding Photo of an acquaintance of mine, who belongs to Syrian Jacobite Church in India. They pledge allegiance to Patriarch of Antioch Ignatius II

Again, this too have exceptions: For instance, Believers Eastern Church , which claims episcopal origin and Orthodox roots (though I personally consider them as a protestant imitation of Eastern liturgy), have a head Metropolitan who is married Metropolitan of BEC

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Realistic-Plant3957 t1_j2l6ul1 wrote

Sister Mary Elizabeth had lived a devout, austere and mostly silent life as a nun, spending most of her days in her Carmelite cell in northern England.

Lisa would make her own way to one of the Roman Catholic churches in her home town and sit alone in the second pew - where she says she developed an overwhelming love for the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, and ultimately a feeling she had a vocation.

But, that day in the convent parlour, it all changed with the touch of a sleeve and a message asking if she would walk away from monastic life and get married.

"I didn't know what it feels like to be in love and I thought the sisters could see it in my face.

But he says the order taught him how to embrace darkness, difficulties and crisis to the point where he felt settled.

And I didn't feel any different about God, and that was reassuring to me," says Lisa.

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Initial_E t1_j2mwjxm wrote

Even the apostle Paul knew, the celibate life isn’t for everyone. He didn’t mean it as a challenge to people to prove their holiness. Yet here we are.

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Glytterain t1_j2lyg5z wrote

What a sweet and beautiful story and couple.

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Shanhaevel t1_j2mcpt1 wrote

Celibacy should never have existed.

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StrayMoggie t1_j2n14n7 wrote

It goes against Natural Law to prevent others from being able to procreate.

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dan1101 t1_j2n3x86 wrote

Yeah her order trying to prevent her from having contact with men was just creepy.

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KellyJin17 t1_j2n82tc wrote

Huh. I was just at a NYE dinner where I sat next to a woman who’s parents were a nun and a priest that fell in love with each other and got married.

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Sivalleydan2 t1_j2lyqk8 wrote

Hey! I'll ask. Why not?

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TheAngloLithuanian t1_j2r59wb wrote

Exactly, I don't believe there's anything in the bible against this, the opposite even as marriage and living a happy life is encouraged.

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cobaltaureus t1_j2mwfmc wrote

Thanks for the uplifting news, this made me smile.

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daffodilily t1_j2n3azu wrote

What a lovely story! Truly made my day :)

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zstandig t1_j2oqf3f wrote

Holy Matrimony

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Extrovert108 t1_j2mgyuw wrote

Congratulations and best wishes to them!

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parsifal t1_j2mrh0u wrote

‘I just couldn’t leave it alone, really.’ — both of them

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TheAngloLithuanian t1_j2r49pp wrote

I see nothing wrong here as a Christian. If regular people can get married and go to heaven, why can't monks and nuns?

They are clearly still much more devoted to God then the average family and God never said anything along the words of "Don't leave living in isolation or else", so literally nothing in the bible is broken by them being together.

In fact, I have a feeling a happy ending like this is exactly what God would like seeing.

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Erettan t1_j2m3ox5 wrote

A true love story

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DargyB t1_j2nfa3y wrote

Damn jezebels

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Sonyguyus t1_j2n6kte wrote

“All that pent up energy for thirty-five years, just wantin' and wantin' and wantin', WHOO! Blow yo head off!

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otravez5150 t1_j2napox wrote

Love and family trumps makebelieve gods

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nitrohigito t1_j2ljr5v wrote

It's interesting the gymnastics the mind is capable of.

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