Comments
themassman_2020 t1_iy96sge wrote
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe trucks can pull around the back, right? There appears to be an entrance to the field (where the grounds crew keeps their tractor/supplies/etc.) as well..
teddygrahamdispenser t1_iy9c3ck wrote
The Telegram had a story about the lack of concerts: here's the story.
The center field door is only 12' high, which is a foot shorter than what's needed to fit a truck through, so any touring group is going to have to unload all of their stuff outside of the wall and carry it through or lift it over with a crane like they do at Fenway (which is obviously not going to make sense cost- or effort-wise for any artist that would be considering playing in the stadium).
NativeMasshole t1_iy8z9bn wrote
Is that why there's no concerts there? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! If central Mass needed one thing to promote entertainment, it should have been an outdoor music venue. All our venues either suck or are tiny, and I don't think there's any major outdoor venues in the entire county.
Forgot_the_Jacobian t1_iy8yfcs wrote
One of the strongest consensuses in economics (specially urban and sports economics) is that governments funding and investing in sports stadiums is a bad idea. Economists (and i'm assuming most non economists) rang the alarm bell way early on:
> “There’s a great deal of consensus among sports economists of all political stripes that this is not a good thing for local governments to be doing"
> “Your community could think of all other ways to spend the money with better economic return than a minor league baseball team,” said Baade, from Lake Forest College in Illinois. “We’re talking, after all, about a minor league club … If the local economy is going to be given a boost by this project, it would somehow have to stimulate additional spending in the local economy.”
> Economists generally feel sports, especially in the minor leagues, do not spur additional spending.“Overwhelmingly, the fannies in the stands are local,” said Allen Sanderson, an economist at the University of Chicago. “They’re choosing to spend a day or an evening at the ballpark instead of at the ball or other entertainment options.”
> Matheson said he was surprised that Worcester officials committed to so much money for the stadium with what he said is so little in return. The city, which would own the ballpark, would allow the team to keep advertising and concession revenue at the stadium and revenue from a planned naming rights deal with Polar Beverages. “They seemed to be smarter than that,” Matheson said of city officials. “I’m extremely surprised that (the city’s cost) is as large as it is.”
CloroxWipes1 t1_iyctnfe wrote
If this stupid baseball team was such a great boon for the local economy, then why did Pawtucket let it go?
I moved here in 1987. This city had a bone for the Pawtucket Sox even back then.
As expected, Worcester, in this scenario, is the barking dog that finally caught the car and has no clue what do do with it now that he's caught it.
ThrillDr1 t1_iy8b9rt wrote
Polar park is NOT neighborhood friendly - people aren't using the neighborhood to go to dinner or grab a drink- and for the city to assume that people would was short-sighted and ridiculous.
People go to the game, buy overpriced food and drinks and then they LEAVE. The entire area went through gentrification, landlords got greedy and upped the rent causing businesses to leave.
The city easily swayed to buy a bag of shit because they wanted a stadium so badly that they didn't do their due diligence, and now the people, once again, pay for that, quite literally.
chupacabra_666 t1_iy8dozo wrote
I went to a bunch of games last season and every time we wanted to grab drinks and late food after the game most options were closed. In most MiLB towns businesses around the stadium adapt to benefit from it. Drink specials, GameDay menus, etc. If people are going to eat and drink Inside the stadium before the game it's probably because that's the best option for them. Like another user mentioned, it's not like the area was thriving before. Seems like the story shouldn't be "ballpark closing businesses", it should that businesses expected the ballpark to save them from their decline without any effort.
sunshinepills t1_iy8lp7w wrote
Couldn't agree more. I know it's a much larger stage, but take a walk around the Fenway Park area during a Red Sox game and count how many bars are closed because tHaT gOdFoRsAkEn BaLlPaRk Is TaKiNg AlL oUr MoNeY. I assure you, the WooSox would just be tickled if you spent all of your money within the ballpark but they're certainly not holding game-goers hostage in there.
orzechod t1_iy95fib wrote
"not thriving before"? really? Green Island is one of the few places where Worcester feels like a real city. I'm down there 4-5 times a month for lunch, dinner, drinks, or shopping.
your_city_councilor t1_iy9v9oy wrote
Definitely agree. For whatever reason, businesses think that they'll do well by not bothering to even try to attract customers. Why didn't they/don't they tailor their hours around when there's going to be a huge influx of people? Why not at least try to do some advertising to pull people in?
And closing early: maybe Worcester restaurants should try to be open more often. I moved away from Worcester after high school, and when I came back I was utterly surprised by how many restaurants were just closed on several days of the week or who closed way too early. People say that has to do with the pandemic, but that's the way businesses were acting even before.
Why is the public market thriving? Why hasn't the park taken away their business? Why isn't the parking situation harming them? All of these businesses want to just say "but the ballpark!" as a scapegoat.
thisisntmynametoday t1_iyaeb2f wrote
Public market businesses have been quoted on the record talking about downturns in business during games. Especially on weekends.
Ballparks are a black hole for local businesses. While they might drive pre and post game crowds to neighboring places, it’s in the most inconvenient times when it’s a night game. 5-7pm and 11pm-close aren’t the best times for restaurants. It’s good for bars.
6-9 pm is the prime dining time for most customers, and many will stay away on game day due to the crowds and perception of lack of parking, inconvenience, etc.
If you are a restaurant staying open later to catch a ballpark crowd that has already been eating and drinking inside, you are gambling. People might go home. They might be full and only want to drink at a bar, not a restaurant.
And if your dining room is empty 6-9pm because of the public’s reluctance to dine during games, then you are losing money. It costs money to open your doors, and it costs a lot more to staff up for 12+ hours a day. That requires a lot more employees than you might afford for a gamble.
Jerry Remy’s restaurant opened up right across from the right field corner at Fenway. Prime spot, but they couldn’t make a living off of being slammed 81 home games a year, then much smaller crowds the rest of the time. https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/03/04/closure-jerry-remy-restaurant-preceded-years-financial-struggle/d84dQz01W7Xwmh9GqpWnoL/story.html
your_city_councilor t1_iybhwe4 wrote
>5-7pm and 11pm-close aren’t the best times for restaurants. It’s good for bars.
But restaurants have to cater to the people who are going to be around them. Having a staff there from 5-7 and working to entice people who are walking from parking inside, and maybe doing something in terms of advertising.
What did, say, the barbecue spot actually do to try to attract people who were going to the games? Weekends they were 12-8, other days of the week they were open 4-8? What kinds of hours are those?
thisisntmynametoday t1_iybu9ej wrote
The ballpark has 75 home games a year. There’s about 24 weeks to the season, and maybe half of those weekends have home games Friday-Saturday.
That is 12 weekends a year where a ballpark adjacent business is going to see a significant decrease in business due to the ballpark on weekends, which is when restaurants make the most money.
Trying to “attract” a percentage of the ~9000 fans who attend a 3+ hour baseball game isn’t feasible. Most people go out for a drink or two before the game. Most aren’t going to add in 1.5 hours to sit down for a meal before or after the game. Weeknight games start at 6:35pm. Realistically, who is getting out of work early to go eat before the game, and who is going to go out to eat at 10pm after the game? Not many. Study after study shows that fans spend most of their money and time inside the ballpark, and the perception of crowds on game day drive away other customers.
Across the board businesses in the Canal District (not just restaurants) have said sales are down on game days because customers stay away on game days because of traffic, congestion, a lack of parking, 2 hour meters, and an absolute lack of public transport.
Have you ever worked in the restaurant industry? Restaurants stay open for the hours that people show up. Adding hours means adding employees, adding product, and additional costs. You just can’t decide a few weeks a year to have odd hours and add in temp workers. That’s not how the industry works. Off hours are off hours for a reason, and you will lose money trying to attract customers in during off hours.
your_city_councilor t1_iye5tkk wrote
>Have you ever worked in the restaurant industry? Restaurants stay open for the hours that people show up.
Yes, I've spent years working in the restaurant industry. Restaurants change their hours around, experimenting to figure out what's best for attracting customers.
And the whole parking issue as an argument against Polar Park makes no sense to me. It's an argument for keeping the neighborhood unpopulated, aside from a couple of restaurants and bars that don't bring too many people. If parking is the issue, then the restaurants should petition the city to build a garage. One (at least) was built by the park already.
Lack of public transport is also an issue that can and should be addressed, but it's not an argument against the park, either. Worcester - including its businesses - either needs to resign itself to being a decaying mill town or it needs to be creative.
thisisntmynametoday t1_iyerab4 wrote
If you’ve worked in a restaurant than you know having food service past 10pm is a way to barely break even during those hours and burn out BOH staff. And you would know that pregame hours in the early afternoon are usually slow as well. Money is made during weekends and dinner service, and having 75 days a year, including ~12 weekends a year with ballpark induced reductions in revenue is tough to recover from.
It you want to succeed in off hours, you need to be a bar, first and foremost. Worcester is nowhere near close enough to being an 18 hour city.
Business owners have repeatedly said parking is an issue, specifically the 2 hour limits on street parking without renewals and stringent parking enforcement. Businesses have said that their staff struggle to find parking, and face a lot of tickets.
The lack of parking in the neighborhood was an issue on weekends before the park, and it’s made far worse by adding in~9000 fans 75 days a year. The city closed a municipal lot on Green Street. That’s something that should have been addressed since the planning phase of the park. Building one garage in the second year of operations is a developer and city failure. Placing the burden on business owners to petition for basic levels of competency from developers and the city is incredibly myopic and condescending.
Scholarship has repeatedly shown that tax payer funded ballparks are a black hole, and not the economic saviors people think they are. Worcester just chose to ignore that and gave away millions of taxpayer funded bonds to the millionaire owners of a AAA team.
The only way out of this is a massive investment in public transport, walkable neighborhoods, and a series of parking options to help with the influx of visitors for games. Also, we need to kill the idea that outside developers have our best interests at heart. Build up and invest the community we have, not the outside investors the Chamber of Commerce has always tried (and failed) to help invest in our city.
thatguyonreddit40 t1_iy8f1jb wrote
Thats not accurate. Went to 7 or 8 games last year. Ate lunch/dinner outside the park for all but 1. Plenty of fans around too
teddygrahamdispenser t1_iy8qcvo wrote
Green Street was actually one of the few areas in the city that was already doing well before the ballpark was built - it was happening organically without the need for intervention from the city. This is one of the things that makes the choice of location for the stadium so heartbreaking and puzzling.
Notfromcorporate t1_iy8bsdn wrote
Let’s not act like that area was thriving before the stadium arrived.
saintsandopossums t1_iy8cs9n wrote
I think it was though. You had a bunch of shops and restaurants on Green St. and it was honestly the place in Worcester that felt most like an actual city block. When my cousin came to Worcester to look at colleges, I took them to Crompton/Smokestack/Dive Bar, because that was a good representation of the area. Now two of those 3 places are closed because of the ballpark
The_Mahk t1_iy8j85x wrote
And the impact of the pandemic alongside increase cost of goods/energy.
saintsandopossums t1_iy8k9dv wrote
Dive Bar closed specifically because the property's landlord wanted to make a "family baseball destination" that never ended up happening. And Smokestack closed because the building was sold, probably to become parking from what I've heard. COVID and inflation make for good scapegoats, and they definitely play a part, but most of the closures seem to be from greedy landlords thinking that they can make a quick buck before everyone wises up to the ballpark not really helping business in the area
metacomet88 t1_iyen6tm wrote
So none of the places you mentioned closed due to a downturn in business because of the park…
New restaurants close all the time. Maddis was pretty mediocre. Hangover/broth had a bad reputation and were banking on fading food trends.
I’m not saying the park is all good, but looking at a few restaurants in the neighborhood closing within 6 months doesn’t necessarily say anything about the role the park is playing.
985thesportshub t1_iya27zh wrote
Interesting you mention greed.
Since you clearly have some connection to these places, do tell, what's Smokestack Inc's plan with the $400,000 they got in PPP loans that were forgiven before they decided the big bad ballpark took all their customers? I'd love to hear it.
HighVulgarian t1_iy8khmj wrote
I mean, look at all the good the stadium did for Pawtucket for all those years. There’s your due diligence
Shvasted t1_iy9elvw wrote
Haha! That’s what I was saying during the initial debate. My question was, “Do we really want to be just like Pawtucket? Not a high bar guys.”
thisisntmynametoday t1_iy8txpk wrote
The restaurants that closed in the Canal District probably didn’t close just because of the ballpark. Food cost and rent have gone up. Add in the uncertainty of projected revenue caused by a reduction of customers during 70+ home games, and these businesses made the decision to close.
Also, let’s not ignore the fact that the places that closed had similar menus and atmospheres- they were competing against each other and the new Mercantile downtown (a corporate chain that has deeper pockets).
Long term, if this park is going to pay for itself in 30 years (and be the first in US history to do so), the city needs all the current businesses need to succeed as well as the new developments, plus residents to patronize the district.
If businesses are closing around Polar Park, who is going to fill all the new retail space in the new developments that will be built in the next 2-3 years? With inflation and interest rates going up, it’s going to be harder to fill those storefronts and apartments and hotels. We haven’t even come close to filling all of the storefronts in City Square, never mind the new developments around the ballpark.
And in the meantime, we lose locally owned businesses that hired locally and put money back into the community. Instead we are going to be stuck with generic corporate chains without local ties, and another 28 years of ballooning payments on the ballpark bond. And we all have to pay more in rent and food because of the gentrification caused by greedy developers.
Any elected official who keeps telling you this will all work out well doesn’t care about us and our every day lives. They just see the glory of a new ballpark and new development, and ignore the displacement of actual Worcester residents, who they actually need to patronize the district to pay the tax bill they should have handed to Larry Lucchino.
Shvasted t1_iy9fj7g wrote
That’s for a pretty rational and obviously well thought out reply. I agree with most of what you said. All but that The Hangover Pub had any real competition on that street. I thought that place had some of the best food I’ve had in the decade+ I’ve lived here. If it wasn’t for the spotty service I’d say best restaurant in town. What closed it? Who knows. COVID, the park, bad life choices, sickness, any of the above. But let’s all remember when we get overtly saddled with the burden of paying for this thing, it is the most expensive minor league ballpark ever built in human history! We got that going for us.
thisisntmynametoday t1_iy9idau wrote
I think Hangover/Broth’s issues had more to do with the chaos from ownership. Whatever gains they made in their first few years were erased when the chef had to buy it and restart permitting after federal charges against the manager and owner. That’s a tough hole to dig out of twice.
I never had a good experience there. Service and food quality were highly variable. They just were not good at details and it showed everywhere. My first time visiting there, they had tequila misspelled four unique ways throughout the menus and chalkboards. That was the highlight of the night.
your_city_councilor t1_iy9tp01 wrote
Isn't that space already leased out for a new restaurant coming in?
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ganduvo t1_iya95g6 wrote
Counterpoint: Hangover and Broth were my absolute least favorite restaurants in Worcester and I am not the only person who felt that way.
outb0undflight OP t1_iyatyrc wrote
Yeah this is honestly the first time in like five years I've seen someone say anything positive about Hangover/Broth.
guybehindawall t1_iyan7cz wrote
This is crazy to read because as soon as that place announced they were closing the entirety of Worcester jumped on the internet to say how bad they thought it sucked.
Enragedocelot t1_iyb5u6u wrote
The Hangover always sucked, they don’t count.
saintsandopossums t1_iya3w8d wrote
It's kind of ironic that the discourse around the neighborhood went from "Polar Park will be great to the Canal District" to "why haven't the lazy restaurants done better in changing their whole businesses to adjust to the impact of the ballpark?" in a span of only a couple years
It's not an unfair question, but that's not how the park was sold! The rhetoric was that it was going to be a rising tide lifts all boats situation, and that clearly wasn't the case. Property speculation may have happened anyway, but it's not "being mean to the ballpark" to spare a thought for the service workers who are losing jobs before the holidays when these places close
guybehindawall t1_iyanpds wrote
Also, everyone's assuming that restaurants aren't staying open after games just because they don't feel like it. Seems more likely to me that they aren't doing it because the business they get from it isn't enough to justify it.
scabdul t1_iy8rgoo wrote
common outlets all over again.
your_city_councilor t1_iy9w3kv wrote
People actually go to the ballpark.
operator_1337 t1_iyaelgi wrote
No one is saying they aren't, they are saying that is not enough revenue to support it without the city giving tax credits and funding.
They're also saying people just leave Worcester post game as most games end past closing time of most restaurants in the area, with the exception of maybe 99, Wings over Worcester, and some pizza places. (Only including family friendly options). It's not like people are leaving the park in hordes and head into downtown / Kelly sq. And on top of that people tend to not want to spend more time in Worcester than needed.
your_city_councilor t1_iybhkg6 wrote
>games end past closing time of most restaurants in the area, with the exception of maybe 99, Wings over Worcester, and some pizza places.
I mean, the restaurants determine their opening and closing times.
operator_1337 t1_iycth99 wrote
I totally agree, but i also understand most restaurants cant feasibly do that. It's untenable.
Eve617 t1_iyb7oan wrote
There needs to be year around activity at the park. Of course the dead of winter is going to be more difficult but even Fenway hosts hockey games and even some high school sports on the field. Then there's the situation with the concerts. What's the feasibility of fixing the height of the entryway for trucks to enter? Who is responsible for running the facility and doing the marketing? They seem to be falling down on the job or was this park supposed to be a one-trick pony?
Zinski t1_iyatljg wrote
I tried to get season tickets for my brother one years.
Said they where sold out for every section. 🤷♂️
[deleted] t1_iy89nf7 wrote
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New-Vegetable-1274 t1_iybs9jp wrote
I couldn't find any info on it but I think Worcester still has a mortgage on the DCU which opened in 1982. The Worcester Center Galleria (mall) was profitable for only about a decade after which it steadily declined and was eventually demolished. It never paid for itself. Polar Park was another roll of the dice and only time will tell. I think all of these things were attempts to restore Worcester's economy after industry died there. Hopefully Polar Park will draw other businesses to the area.
BeeFrizz t1_iych9lq wrote
I don't attend games and deliberately don't go to the area when there's a game because parking becomes scarce despite parking being banned for games. There's businesses in the area I'd be spending money at in the absence of games.
UnscSpartan23 t1_iyb6jt5 wrote
Football stadiums that keep NFL teams around aren’t worth the price tag.
Baseball is dumb, boring, and this is a minor league team. So stupid.
OtakonBlue t1_iyaymlk wrote
Baseball….fading sport.
teddygrahamdispenser t1_iy8qpdy wrote
It's also completely insane that the park doesn't have a door capable of allowing in the equipment necessary for concerts (making the stadium look more like Fenway was prioritized over this functionality). Concerts were supposed to be another source of revenue.