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riuminkd t1_j9tl1h6 wrote

Reply to comment by Shadowwynd in Do all thinking creatures on Earth use neurons? Does an example of non-neuron based biological "intelligence" exist? by Wun_Weg_Wun_Dar__Wun

Do you realize that "slime mold solving maze" is literally just following the steepest gradient of smell/taste of whatever it is in the middle? There is no intelligence involved. And i don't think memory is considered to be a sign of any high intellogence

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MayorOfNoobTown t1_j9tycmn wrote

> And i don't think memory is considered to be a sign of any high intellogence

Really? Every model of intelligence I'm familiar with includes memory as a significant component. Without some form of memory, one is unable to make predictions.

Without predictions, one is restricted to a completely static reactionary model. Iteration is impossible without memory.

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jqbr t1_j9vk5uu wrote

> Every model of intelligence I'm familiar with includes memory as a significant component

Fallacy of affirmation of the consequent. Intelligence is a sign that there is memory, not v.v.

P.S. No, I did not commit a fallacy of denying the antecedent (which is the contrapositive of and thus logical equivalent of affirmation of the consequent), and it's not a game. And you just committed the same fallacy again ... yes models of intelligence include memory -- that's what I said. But memory does not entail intelligence -- again, that inversion is your fallacy.

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MayorOfNoobTown t1_j9vx6qc wrote

Well, if we're playing the fallacy game, you've just committed the fallacy of denying the antecedent.

It's true that intelligence doesn't necessarily guarantee the presence of memory, you'll be hard pressed to find a serious model that omits memory as an essential component of the ability to learn from experience and apply that knowledge in new situations.

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Krilion t1_j9uuj8p wrote

You actually missed the real criticism, in that it's more or less a optimized maze search shortest path algorithm, which can be selected for chemically.

But uh, that's all biology is, including neurons. So the line still exists. The question isn't "Is finding the maze high intelligence?" It's "Where do you put the arbitrary line?".

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riuminkd t1_j9uv5i2 wrote

It's not an optimized search algorithm. It's literally "spread yourself in all directions, once food signal from one of your sides gets sufficiently strong, shift your body in this direction". It's bruteforce. And no one will put arbitrary line that close to complete unintelligence

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Krilion t1_j9uwclf wrote

Hey, uh... What do you think maze solving algorithms do?

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riuminkd t1_j9uxg2i wrote

Don't those usually refer to single entity traversing maze? Not something that can just grow in all directions

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Krilion t1_j9uxz04 wrote

The process for finding a specific random point in a maze usually involves 75%+traversal. It doesn't matter if you're a single entity or not, as the slime mold is just effective running it all in parallel.

Even given the location of an exit, most solvers still end up searching most of the map before finding it.

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Bax_Cadarn t1_j9u2js5 wrote

Do You realize that our solving a maze is just following what we see?

Do You realize a rat solving a maze could do that just by smelling food or from memory?

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Shadowwynd t1_j9wjjdb wrote

A nerve cell is following similar gradients of chemicals. Where do we draw the line for intelligence? The OP question was about intelligence not using neurons. Is problem solving intelligence? Is maze solving a chemistry trick given life itself is a chemistry trick?

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riuminkd t1_j9xngp6 wrote

We do not consider single nerve cell as possessing intelligence. And again, mold doesn't solve maze. It isn't even aware of maze. It is following a rigid and very simple program. If you draw the line of intelligence here, literally all living beings are intelligent. And all computers too

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pandc0122 t1_j9ug2ld wrote

“Following the steepest gradient of smell/taste of whatever is in the middle?”

How does that differ from any other problem-solving animal?

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riuminkd t1_j9ui51x wrote

For problem-solving animal, it is not seen as sign of intelligence. Imagine if people were saying that "dogs are intelligent, just look at them finding food via smell!"

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pandc0122 t1_j9ujjzr wrote

I get that, but by itself, and using the same example, it is also not evidence of the absence of intelligence.

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jqbr t1_j9vky7v wrote

Strawman ... no one came anywhere near to saying anything about evidence of the absence of intelligence. A claim that X is not evidence of Y is very different from a claim that X is evidence of not Y.

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