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florinandrei t1_jd4ubra wrote

Reply to comment by Zalack in Can a single atom be determined to be in any particular phase of matter? by Zalack

Technically, you can associate a temperature to the velocity of the atom measured relative to the container, and therefore obtain a "temperature" for that atom. But a lot of concepts become quite strained when you reduce things to single atoms, and temperature is one of them. A single atom does not have a temperature in the normal sense.

To your initial question: the phases of matter are only defined for molecular or atomic collectives. Single molecules or atoms do not have a clearly defined phase of aggregation. Even for large molecular collectives it is not always clear whether they are solid, liquid, or gas. For example, on geologic time scales, even some "solids" can flow.

The phases of matter are more like convenience concepts. We use them to simplify discussions that would otherwise be complex. There's nothing fundamental about them. Do not get stuck in rigid categorizations there, because there's no point in doing that.

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OPossumHamburger t1_jd5ei1k wrote

Phases of matter are more than convenient classifications of multiple atoms.

Because of their states, they exhibit different physical properties including changes in electrical conductance.

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yakbrine t1_jd5k2pr wrote

His point to my understanding is that is kind of the point. There’s probably tons of variables like this for every solid and liquid. And the sole fact they are solid or liquid does not give them said properties or everything would be identical. The point being everything is extremely nuanced and we’ve created these categorizations so we don’t have to define everything as a mathematical equation instead of ‘solid gas liquid’

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florinandrei t1_jd6br1i wrote

> they exhibit different physical properties including changes in electrical conductance

Of course they do. I'm just saying - the borders between them are far more fuzzy than most people imagine.

E.g. consider the changes that occur in tar or pitch when cooled from the boiling point of water to the boiling point of nitrogen. It's liquid at one end. It's solid at the other. The changes are smooth, without any sharp transitions.

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NeverPlayF6 t1_jd5w6tb wrote

Since states are defined by how "they exhibit different physical properties," how many N2 atoms does it take to behave like a solid/liquid/gas in any given system?

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Angdrambor t1_jd7xac3 wrote

It sounds extremely convenient to me, to be able to model bulk properties like conductance instead of modeling individual atoms.

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Dr-Luemmler t1_jd5fsbi wrote

Maybe I dont get what you are saying about temperature, but what you are saying doesnt make sense to me. If a single atom wouldnt have a temperature, because it cant have a velocity alone, what happens if we drop a second atom in the void? Does now (kinetic) energy spawn from nothing? Besides that, temperature itself isnt relative as we have a true zero. Even if it is just theoretical.

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6strings10holes t1_jd5htjc wrote

You can't establish energy really, only changes or relative amounts to a reference frame.

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Dr-Luemmler t1_jd5io43 wrote

Thats my point. Ofc, in a labratory you need a reference to measure the velocity of a single atom. The reference frame obviously can be broken down to other atoms if you want, but that doesnt mean a single atom cant have kinetic energy by itself.

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florinandrei t1_jd6bwq6 wrote

It definitely does have a kinetic energy.

The only thing is - when you go from kinetic energy to temperature, you run into all sorts of trouble if you do it for single entities.

Temperature is an inherently collective measure. If it's single particles, stick to kinetic energy.

What is the "temperature" of this marble I'm throwing? ;) (not the temperature of the glass, but the "temperature" of the marble as a single particle with some kinetic energy)

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Dr-Luemmler t1_jd75stk wrote

Defining temperature by kinetic energy, you could calculate it for a single marble. If you want to use the advanced definition of temperature via entropy, sure lets do it:

$T = dE/dS $

So temperature is the change of internal energy when changing the entropy. In statistical thermodynamics, one can now define entropy by the number of availible states $\Omega$ with its degrees of freedom.

The degrees of freedom a single atom has are $3N-3$ = 0. That basically means, this atom only has the translation dofs and the electronic ones. Lets neglect the electronic ones (even though they might be important, as with then we might be able to measure the temperature) then the temperature of a single atom is solely defined by its kinetic energy.

Can we access it in labratory without using the interaction with other atoms? No! But in simulations we can. Or what kinds of problems do we have?

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Quantum_Quandry t1_jde90h1 wrote

A single atom most definitely cannot have kinetic energy all by itself. SR/GR makes it abundantly clear that you must have something to reference against to make a measurement, and the answer changes depending on which reference point you're using. This should be obvious to anyone who has driven a car. Let's say you have three cars, yourself going 50mph north, a second car ahead of you and to your left going 45mph north, and a third car going 50mph ahead of you headed south. You have to swerve left or right due to an obstacle ahead, which do you choose? Obviously you're going to swerve left, ignoring the velocity of your swerve itself, you're going to overtake the car on your left a a relative 5mph and if you go right you'd be moving 100mph relative. Or you could split the difference and drive directly into the obstacle which is going 50mph relative to you.

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TheArmitage t1_jd5hp7t wrote

>what happens if we drop a second atom in the void?

In doing so, you've introduced energy into the system. That atom had to get there somehow, and that takes energy.

>Besides that, temperature itself isnt relative as we have a true zero.

Yes, it is. It's just self-referential. Thermal motion is the motion of atoms in a substance relative to each other. So if all atoms in a substance have zero motion relative to each other, it has a temperature of 0K.

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Acewasalwaysanoption t1_jd5ll20 wrote

Nobody said that we can't have a reference point, just that we have a single atom of an element, as opposed to a macroworld-sized amount to easily determine its phase.

Like if I'm the last person on the world, I can't tell if I'm handsome or if I'm rich, without other people to compare myself. But I know how fast I am, because I don't need other people for a reference system.

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TheArmitage t1_jd5mdnn wrote

It is inherent in the definition of temperature that the substance is compared to itself. You cannot have an external reference point for temperature, because then it's not temperature.

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Acewasalwaysanoption t1_jd5oj3o wrote

Sorry, I may have misread something.

New question: what you exactly mean by "compared to itself"? It can't be literally itself in the same state, as it would be the same, all the time. Can't be a chunk of the material, or any material that has the same temperature in its core and surface would be at 0 difference and...incomperable?

Also, using thermometers isn't using an external point if reference in general? Originally nercury's change in volume to tell a completely different material's temperature. Works because energy transfer.

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Purplestripes8 t1_jd6moch wrote

By compared to itself it means the motions of the atoms within an object relative to each other. The object itself can have any velocity depending on the observer but no matter which direction it's moving as a whole or how fast, the atoms within still have the same motions relative to each other, which is signified by temperature.

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8426578456985 t1_jd534z5 wrote

How fast would that be? Being a single atom in a glass jar?

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Noggin01 t1_jd5acka wrote

Depends. Is the glass moving?

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8426578456985 t1_jd5aonm wrote

I want to say no, but relative to what? Say the jar is floating in space with no radiation hitting it and the hydrogen atom is just teleported into the jar so their relative speeds are zero at the start.

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